Yeardley:  Hey, Small Town Fam. It’s Yeardley. I want to remind you that if you want access to bonus episodes and regular episodes a day early and ad free, and our community forum and other behind-the-scenes goodies, you got to go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam. And then in the top righthand corner, hit that little tab that says join. And then listen to the end of today’s episode for a sneak peek at today’s new bonus episode.

[music]

 Hey, Small Town Fam. It’s Yeardley. How are you guys? I’m so glad you’re here. We have a gripping two-part case for you today from our own detective, Dave. Longtime listeners know that before Dave retired, his caseload was investigating sex crimes and child abuse. So, this is a case about a sex offender.

 However, we keep the specific details of what happened to the victims in these cases to a minimum on this podcast. So, stick with me because this case has all the suspense, anger, urgency, indignation, and satisfaction we crave when the most vulnerable among us are the victims. It is also an eye-opening account of the many ways sex offenders groom everyone in their circle to get what they want. This is a story of courage and many heroes. From the victim we meet in the beginning to her mama bear mother, to others along the way who are driven to do the right thing. And as with every case Dave investigated, it is a testament to his doggedness in getting justice for the victim. Now, I don’t want to presume, but you might want to grab some Kleenex before you press play. Here is Part 1 of Running to Ground.

 Hi, there. I’m Yeardley.

Dan:  I’m Dan.

Dave:  I’m Dave.

Paul:  And I’m Paul.

Yeardley:  And this is Small Town Dicks.

Dan:  Dave and I are identical twins-

Dave:  -and retired detectives from Small Town, USA.

Paul:  And I’m a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

Dan:  Between the three of us, we’ve investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Dave:  Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare, personal account of how they solved the crime.

Paul:  Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

Dan:  And although we’re aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved-

Dave:  -out of respect for what they’ve been through.

[unison]:  Thank you.

Yeardley:  Today, on Small Town Dicks, we have the usual suspects and, ladies and gentlemen, we’re all at the same table for once. This is such a good day. I have Detective Dan.

Dan:  Good morning, team. I guess. Yeah, it’s still morning.

Yeardley:  It’s still morning where we are. I have Detective Dave.

Dave:  Hello, Yeardley.

Yeardley:  Oh, hello, Dav. [laughs] And we have the one and only Paul Holes.

Paul:  Hey. Hey. How’s it going?

Yeardley:  It’s so good. It’s really special to have you here in person and not on Zoom.

Paul:  It’s awesome to be here.

Yeardley:  It’s really great. It’s just so much better.

Paul:  Yes.

Yeardley:  I cannot overstate what a luxury it is to be in the same room to do this thing that we do just there’s an energy to it that you can’t replicate over Zoom. And it’s an extra, extra red-letter day because today’s case comes from our own detective Dave.

Dave:  It does.

Yeardley:  It does. It’s been a while.

Dave:  It has been a while. I could probably explain that I had to take a break from the caseload for a little while.

Yeardley:  I hear you. I mean, for any listeners who are brand new, Dave’s caseload before he retired was sex crimes and child abuse. And you did that for six years. Yes.

Dave:  Six or seven, yeah.

Yeardley: And if that doesn’t wreck you, you’re a dead person. So, I totally get it. But it’s just kind of special to have any one of the dream team here at this table giving us a case that you guys investigated. Anywho, I digress. Dave, please tell us how this case came to you.

Dave:  All right. I became a detective in 2012 and I think Dan was a couple years after that, after he got done with his K9, he became a detective. And so, Dan worked this case with me. So, it was probably two years after I became a detective, 2014, 2015, probably 2014. I’m sitting at my desk, and as typical, I check what we used to call our investigator dashboard, which is just your caseload on the computer instead of hard files like we used to have before. We went to an actual system where you could write reports on a computer and upload it right into the system. The software was basically a report writing software and information database that tracks all of our local contacts and all the case numbers, all the evidence.

Yeardley:  So, specifically for the task of reports, which must have felt like, “Oh, my God, we’ve reached the end of the rainbow.” [laughs]

Dave:  Oh, it was nice, the functionality that provided.

Paul:  I’ve got you beat. When I started, we had to hand write our reports, and this is in the lab. And then the reports would go to a secretary who would type up a draft. Then we’d have to correct the draft, she would retype. And this isn’t on a computer. This is on a typewriter. And it would take anywhere from three to six weeks of back and forth before a final report could be released.

Yeardley:  How old are you?

[laughter]

Dave:  No, I was going to say that was back when people were parting red seas and stuff like that, way long time ago. [Yeardley laughs]

Paul:  Actually, this was in 1994, so I had started four years prior doing drug analysis and stuff. But when we got to criminalistics and we had narrative reports or crime scene reports, it was a cumbersome process. So, when we first got a computer that you could actually type on, huge.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Dave:  Yeah. So, at this time, I’m getting reports assigned to me where you basically just get a notification online, like Bing, like “you’ve got mail.” But this one is different in that I have an officer who is working patrol who comes to me and says, “Hey, I just took a really nasty public indecency report. And I was hoping you, the sex crimes detective, could help me through this, because I don’t do a lot of these.” And I said, “Absolutely, I’m in.” So, our city’s got grocery stores, all the ones you expect to see in a city. And then we have some more kind of smaller grocery-type stores and neighborhood markets. So, this is a type of grocery store. It’s not a name brand.

 And with that, we don’t have the security camera system that you would expect to find at the Targets and the Walmarts of the world. The gist of this case is the officer tells me– the officer is Eric. And Eric tells me, “Hey, I just got called out on this public indecency where this mother and her six-year-old daughter are grocery shopping. They’re in the bread and bakery section of this grocery store.” And the little girl nudges her mom like, “What’s that man doing?” And the mother looks over and you think about these little sections of the bakery where you have a table and it’s got all the products. So, you’re one side of a square or rectangular table, and just across 5ft away is a guy named Robert. And Robert’s in his late 60s.

 And Robert’s wearing really baggy gray sweatpants and a hoodie, but no facial coverings or anything. His face is easily seen, and Robert is vigorously masturbating beneath his sweatpants. What’s important here is this is caught on video, but the video is so grainy that I can’t tell who the person is. And I had recalled that back in 2012 when I became a detective, I had a similar case at the same grocery store in the same bakery section. And in that case, the suspect was described in a manner that matches Robert and the same type of behavior, same section of the store. And in this case, it was an older woman with her granddaughter, who’s in the same neighborhood as our original six-year-old girl, she is early elementary school age girl and she does the same thing. Points out to grandma, like, “What’s that man doing?” Same thing.

 In that case, we did not have cameras, and we were unable to identify suspects. So that case was suspended in 2012. In 2014, when I get this case, we have an employee at this grocery store who recalled the 2012 case and was working on the day of this 2014 case, where I have mom basically going sideways in the bakery section of this grocery store because this man was just masturbating in front of her. She raises hell, like, right away, big commotion. People start going, “What’s going on?” And Robert beelines out the store.

Yeardley:  Do you know if that’s what Robert did in 2012 as well when commotion was raised, he just took off.

Dave:  Yeah, in that case. In the 2012 case, same type of situation where, I mean, this is midafternoon. It’s not late night. The store is full. And in that case, it was the same thing, big commotion, suspect flees, nobody ever gets eyes on suspect. So, I don’t know if that’s Robert, but the circumstances sure sound similar. So, in the second case of public indecency, we have the store employee who is a jack of all trades. I wouldn’t say he was the manager, but he ran the whole show. You could tell he knew every inch of the property. You would see him working on the building. You’d see him cleaning up. You’d see him helping people stalk. He did everything. And in this case, this employee sees Robert beeline towards the front door and goes, “Oh, this has happened before.”

 The employee runs out the store and just keeps eyes on Robert as Robert walks away down the street. And this employee tells people, call 911. This employee follows this guy several hundred yards to his house and watches him walk inside. And this employee goes, “Got him.” Calls police, our officer Eric shows up to take this report at the store, gets the information from the mom and the daughter as much as he can. Sees the video. Okay, you can see that somebody’s got their hand down their pants. It looks like motion under Robert’s pants, but you don’t see any genitals exposed, you don’t see any skin. We all know what’s happening, but you can’t see it.

Yeardley:  Does that make it a different charge because you can’t actually see his penis?

Dave:  It does. We’ve probably got a slam dunk, disorderly conduct, which the bar is alarming, annoying, or threatening behavior likely to induce some sort of event, which I would say, this checks the boxes. But in this case, I had done some digging into Robert and disorderly conduct was not going to do it for me. So, in this case, we have Eric, who came to me and said, “Hey, I want help on this, because I don’t want to screw it up, this guy’s a problem.” Okay, I agree. Officer Eric and I go out to Robert’s house, relatively short distance from this grocery store, and we’re knocking on the door, knocking on the door. Finally, someone comes to the door, an absurd amount of time, and I’m thinking, “Well, I know somebody watched you walk in, and that person hasn’t reported that you walked back out. Come on, man.”

 Eventually, Robert walks out. And Robert is a white male, late 60s, neatly trimmed facial hair, fairly clean cut. Reminds me of any blue collar working 60-year-old in the world in our town. Lots of mill workers and laborers. Looked like anybody else you would see in our city. I pride myself and my radar’s pretty good when it comes to guys giving off the creepy vibe. Robert doesn’t do any of those things for me.

Yeardley:  Is he still wearing the gray hoodie and gray sweatpants?

Dave:  He had changed into shorts by now, which is probably the delay. And I speak to Robert, and Robert says, “I mean, yeah, I was at the store, and I had my hands in my pockets, but masturbating in public in front of little girls, are you kidding me? I would never do something like that.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, it’s on camera.” He’s like, “Did you see my penis?” And I’m like, “This guy knows what he’s doing.” Robert knows the game. And I had underestimated Robert initially. I didn’t do all the background information checking on Robert until after I left Robert’s house.

Yeardley:  Is that on purpose, that you didn’t check into Robert, or was there a real urgency in Eric’s request that you help him that you were like, “I’m just going to go see what this is about, and then follow up with the suspect.”

Dave:  The exigency was that we have a witness who has followed Robert to his house, and we need to confirm. Basically, we’ve got eyes on the trophy right now. Let’s make sure we don’t lose that. And officer Eric, he didn’t have my experience, didn’t understand the statutes, wouldn’t understand the subtleties of that because he doesn’t study it every day. So, Eric’s just looking for help, truly, like, “I don’t want to mess this up. This is going to be a big one. I don’t want to mess it up.” I appreciate that.

Dan:  Yeah, I mean, kudos to him. Sometimes officers are a little prideful and won’t go that extra step to just say, “Hey, can you lend me a hand on this? Because like you said, I don’t want to screw it up.”

Dave:  Yeah. So, officer Eric handled everything exactly the way I would want a case to be handled from an initial response from an officer. Robert, of course, denies, denies, denies and I leave Robert’s house with– we’re taking a report. Robert is now definitely on my radar. And I have suspicions about this 2012 case, but I got no ID, so we can all say that’s probably him, but that’s not the burden.

Yeardley:  Right. It won’t stand up in court.

Dave:  Right. So, immediately I call Eric, our prosecutor Eric. And Eric’s been on our podcast before, a few times, and he’s one of my favorites because I know that he’ll give me a no bullshit assessment of my case. And I relay the details to Eric and he goes, you’ve got no case. [Yeardley laughs] And I said, that’s what I was afraid of. And he said, “Tuck that one away. You’re going to see that name again.” “Robert.” And I said, “Yeah, I guarantee it.”

Yeardley:  I do want to just point out, Dave, when you first encounter Robert, and he says to you, basically, “Did you see my penis? I happen to know, detective, you don’t have anything on me after this grocery store masturbation scenario.” And it just strikes me that your frustration of having to sit and wait, basically, for Robert to reoffend matches the public’s frustration that what do you mean, you can’t do anything? And I think it’s just felt important to me to point out that you share that frustration.

Dave:  100%. I think the public doesn’t understand that the cops get just as frustrated. We know where the guardrails are, and we know what’s out of bounds, and we can’t have touch that or we can’t go with that hunch, because it’s not defensible in court. Cops get just as frustrated. We say the same things behind closed doors, like, “What the f.” I got to sit here until this guy does something. But we also know that’s how it is. Police work is reactive.

[Break 1]

 So, now’s probably a good time to talk about Robert’s criminal background. I start digging on Robert and what I find is terrifying. Robert is classified as a predatory sex offender, like top of the food chain sex offender.

Yeardley:  Registered sex offender or you don’t have that yet.

Dave:  He is a registered sex offender.

Yeardley:  So Dave, what does adding predatory to the sex offender label mean in law enforcement?

Dave:  Yeah, so you get the predatory sex offender label if you check boxes on what types of sexual crimes you’re committing. So, depends on how many times, the circumstances, the MO, that kind of thing that gets you a predatory sex offender tag, you’ve got to earn that. They don’t just give them out.

Yeardley:  So the regular registrant on the sex offender list is probably just a sex offender for the most part and predatory is an added enhancement.

Dave:  Right. Predatory is way further up the chain than just a regular sex offender. It’s like the courts and the Department of Corrections folks, P&P, parole and probation, they all recognize that there’s a different animal among that group. And Robert was in that top tier group. And Robert, being late 60s, was active in decades prior. And when I run Robert’s record, I run his whole computerized history, everything I can get. And I find out that Robert has three convictions for predatory sex offenses. His first conviction occurred in the late 70s.

 And in that case, Robert is reported to have waited in a wood line near a sidewalk, close to a park and school type area. And it was evening time, so after dark and a girl is walking back home from the school to her house along this wood line. And this girl is 10 or 11. And all of a sudden somebody comes out from the wood line, grabs her, and forcibly pulls her back into the wood line and sexually assaults her, lets the girl go. She runs home, they call the police. Within a short amount of time, they find Robert just down the street. He hasn’t really booked out of the area. And Robert ends up going to prison for two to five years in that case.

Yeardley:  God.

Dan:  So, Robert, likely, I’m just replaying this crime in my head. Robert has kidnapped this 10-year-old girl, he’s assaulted her sexually. And I would imagine that he either threatened to physically assault her, like beat her up or did so during the commission of this crime and he gets two to five years.

Dave:  Right. And that’s the glaring discrepancy here is this is how states turn to mandatory minimum sentences, is because of what was happening in the 70s and 80s. You have these egregious crimes. I mean, you snatch a girl off the street, 10 years old, sexually assault her, and you get two to five years. It’s absurd.

Paul:  Back in the 70s for homicides, five to seven years, sexually motivated homicides. That’s what these predators were getting. And then they’re being released back out, and they reoffend.

Dave:  Yeah. So, Robert has one conviction in the box now, and it’s for a pretty heinous crime, and Robert spends a few years in prison. Robert gets out and returns to our county. And Robert is in a neighboring town across the river. And that town has a college campus, and there’s a main drag that runs right through that campus and gets you to the west side of town. And in this situation, it’s probably late 80s. So, Robert’s first conviction is in the late 70s. He’s out of prison by, I think, 1982, 1983. And a few years later, we have another case.

Yeardley:  But that’s just the one he got caught on.

Dave:  That’s just the one he got caught on. The second set of circumstances, campus setting, nighttime, like after midnight, bars closing. It’s wintertime, so it’s cold and rainy, and this is a pretty busy street. Two lanes on each side with a turn lane in the middle. Well, in this case, we’ve got one victim who is walking on the sidewalk on a side street that parallels this main area, but there’s a bunch of apartments and houses. This woman reports that she was just walking, and all of a sudden, someone grabbed her from behind and put his hands all over her, and then threw her down and took off running. And no suspect description, no nothing like, truly ambush attack. It’s over and you are on the ground looking up, and you just see a figure running off down the street.

 You think about, how am I going to identify this person? A couple hours later, another woman, college student, calls in. She reports that she had been walking home from a bar, going back to her house, and was going to call a friend. Payphones back then, right? The glass booth, payphone right on the side of the street. This woman hops into a payphone booth and goes to call a friend. And while she’s in the phone booth, suddenly the door is pulled open. This woman is pulled off the phone while she’s on the phone with somebody, and she’s sexually assaulted right on the sidewalk on this main track. Like, pulled into the bushes a little bit up against the building, but for all intents and purposes, within meters of a really well traveled thoroughfare through our city. And this is over in minutes. Suspect runs off.

 The friend on the line had called police say, “My friend is over on this main thoroughfare near campus, and I just heard her get attacked on the phone.” Police all over the area and they find Robert walking about a mile away. And Robert claims, “Oh, I was in the area. I was at this bar. I’m just walking back to my car. What’s going on? I see police everywhere. What’s going on tonight?”

Yeardley:  Asshole.

Dave:  When Robert attacked the woman in the phone booth, there was a light on in the phone booth. And when Robert pulled this woman out, she turned around, and his face is right in front of her. This woman gets a great ID and 100% says, “That’s the guy that attacked me.” She had initially given a clothing stature like the general description, and that’s how they found Robert walking. They were looking for a guy in jeans, a jean jacket, and a blue and white striped button-down shirt. And Robert was wearing all of that, that night.

Paul:  Dave, so there’s two women on this campus that are attacked, and the first woman, Robert, touches her and runs off. Allegedly, it’s Robert. Was there anything during that attack that would have scared the offender off? I’m just trying to assess what the offender is doing in that case. And then how come he escalates with the second victim?

Dave:  And that’s what I don’t know is these cases happened so long ago that I don’t have police reports to fall back on and fill in the holes that you have and I do. So, I’m gleaning from documents within the court sensing type stuff, anything I could grab about this guy’s past. But I get a very clear picture of what this guy’s all about. He had received two to five years for a late 70s conviction on a prepubescent girl.

Yeardley:  And that, we know is Robert, right?

Dave:  We know that’s Robert. The second and third cases, which are years later involving these two women near campus, Robert is convicted for both of those. And those are convictions that occur like late 1980s. I’m dealing with Robert in 2014, and I don’t know what Robert’s been up to since he got out of prison from this second set of convictions, which, my understanding, I couldn’t get an official number, but it was anywhere from 10 to 13 years on the two additional women on campus. So, if the convictions in the late 80s, I’ve got him out of prison in the early 2000s.

Yeardley:  Two decades, basically.

Dave:  And truly, I never found anything. Even back then, I had the same, like, “Well, there’s no way this suspect shut his behavior down for all these years, and now he’s back in it.” Well, when Robert was let out of prison, Robert had several years of parole. And by the time that I deal with Robert in the grocery store incident, Robert’s already been off parole for a few years. So, Robert has not committed any crimes allegedly or at least that we can determine.

Paul:  He was convicted in the late 1980s for these two sexually motivated crimes. However, that’s pre CODIS, the FBI’s DNA database. So, Robert likely does not have DNA in the system until he gets collected, when? After 2014?

Dave:  Yes.

Paul:  So, Dave’s looking at Robert and seeing a predator. There’s no question Robert is a predator. What other crimes has Robert committed that he has not been tied to without Robert’s DNA in the system? Now you’re relying upon reports that match similar MOs, similar behaviors by the offender, but where are those occurring? It’s not necessarily in the same jurisdiction that Dave and Dan were working in.

Yeardley:  And there was a time, hopefully it’s quite a bit better now, but agencies didn’t necessarily share information. So, if Robert committed a crime out of state, but even in another county that was several hours from where you guys were detectives, they’re just not a lot of cross referencing in those situations.

Dave:  Right. The information sharing back then was not what it is today.

Paul:  And in the 1980s and 1970s, the type of information that was shared was fleeing. It came over on a teletype. And so, imagine Robert is out of prison after the 1970s conviction, and so he’s got years during the 1980s in which he is not in custody. Robert could have committed a similar crime in a jurisdiction, and a teletype goes out. And so now agencies for that night know, “Oh, something just happened in our neighboring jurisdiction.” Maybe pin it to the office bulletin board, and then it fades away. It ends up the next teletype goes on top of the old teletype.

Dave:  Truly how it works.

Paul:  I mean, literally, after months, that one case, it is now out of memory. Now Dave is looking at Robert three decades later.

Yeardley:  He’s like, “I wish I had all those teletypes,-”

Paul:  Absolutely.

Yeardley:  -if there were teletypes.

Dave:  Yeah. And that’s the thing, is there’s so much I don’t know about Robert’s trail after leaving prison until he lands in our city, that I truly, I still don’t know. I’m curious. I don’t think that he was abiding by the law every day, not somebody with that kind of predilection. And you think in this situation, when Robert’s committing these crimes in the 70s and 80s, he’s in his 20s. Now he’s in his 60s. He’s got to adapt how he gets his fix. And so, when I dug on Robert, I thought for sure I’m going to see this guy again. So, Robert has just been living his life in his house with a couple of roommates. Robert is a handyman. He’s a volunteer in a church group.

 And that is how Robert’s relationship with a church group and folks involved in this community group put Robert into contact with other people in the community.

And that’s where this case is going.

[Break 2]

 So, about a year later.

Yeardley:  Is this the year after the grocery store incident with Robert?

Dave:  Yeah. It’s summertime, so temperatures are hot. It stays light out until 10, 10:30 at night where we live. Our patrol sergeant calls me at my desk. It’s the middle of the day, 3, 4 in the afternoon. And I answer the phone. He says, “Hey, do you remember a guy who lives here? His name is Robert?” And I said, “Oh, yeah, what do you do now?” And he goes, “Well, I don’t know, but he had some case last year at a grocery store where he’s masturbating in the bakery section.” I said, “Yeah, I’m very familiar.” “Well, he was walking down the street.” He doesn’t go to that grocery store anymore because he got booted. But the employee who had noticed him a year prior saw Robert walking down the street with a six-year-old girl in tow, holding hands, walking towards Robert’s house.

 And this employee went so far above and beyond, but I understand why he did because it just didn’t feel right to him, which is what I appreciate about people that are inclined to get involved. This guy said, “Over my dead body, that guy. I’ve seen him masturbate in front of kids before. There’s no way he should have a six-year-old with him.” So, our patrol sergeant goes out there, Sergeant Bryan. Sergeant Bryan and I meet and we start knocking on Robert’s door.

Dan:  It should be noted that Dave replaced Sergeant Bryan’s sex crimes and child abuse position. Bryan got promoted and Dave took over for Sergeant Bryan.

Dave:  Right. So, Bryan is a veteran investigating sexual assault crimes. So, Sergeant Bryan and I go out to this house, and we’re going to do a welfare check. And this employee did the same thing as last time, but must have lost sight of Robert because we’re knocking on the door for 10, 15 minutes. I’m thinking I’m about to kick this door because I know Robert is a predatory sex offender. I know, Robert’s not on parole, but I don’t believe that he should be with a six-year-old girl. And even if I can’t arrest him, I’m going to break up that meeting.

Yeardley:  Let me ask you this, though, just to play devil’s advocate. How do you know Robert doesn’t have a grandchild? And the mother of that child is like, “Hey, will you watch little Sally?”

Dave:  I don’t know that and I don’t care, because he’s got the title predatory sex offender. I don’t care if that’s his blood. I’m breaking up that interaction, at least with some intervention, like, “Got our eyes on you, Robert.” And that’s truly all we are trying to do that day is let’s go make sure this isn’t happening. So, we’re knocking on the door at Robert’s house, and after 10+ minutes, somebody finally comes to the door. And it’s summer, so it’s hot out. This place does not have air conditioning, so they’ve got the windows and doors open. The front door is one of those cage screens that you can lock. It’s not like the flimsy light metal door.

Yeardley:  It’s not a screen door.

Paul:  It’s a security screen.

Dave:  Security screen, but it’s open air. So, I start calling to the back of the house. [Yeardley laughs] “Robert. Robert. Need to talk to you. Robert.” Not going anywhere. Ten minutes later, a woman in her late 20s walks up. She goes, “What are you guys? What are you guys here for?” I said, “I’m trying to find Robert.” And this female is Robert’s roommate, Julie. Robert has another roommate named Daryl, who’s in his 50s. And Daryl and Julie are friends, long-time friends, so they live together. And then Robert rents a room at the house as well. So, a three-bedroom house and Robert’s got his own bedroom, Robert’s got a little office area, and then the other two have their own bedrooms. And then there’s the common area, like the kitchen and living room and the bathroom.

Yeardley:  But presumably, nobody’s in a romantic relationship with anybody in that house.

Dave:  It is true. Nobody is dating anybody in that house, truly just like roommates, Daryl has a past himself. And I’m not saying anything negative about Daryl here because Daryl was a huge help to me. But Daryl is on probation, he’s got a PO, and Darryl is still being supervised by our county parole and probation folks. And he’s under quite a bit of scrutiny because of previous charges that he has, which they got him registered as a sex offender. He’s nowhere near Robert. Daryl’s crimes are much less severe than Robert’s crimes, but Daryl has embraced probation and parole and has a job. He’s doing everything he’s supposed to do. He doesn’t commit new crimes. He’s in the good graces of his PO.

 All reports are good on Daryl and Daryl lives there with his friend, but also happens to live with Robert, who is this predatory sex offender off parole in recent years. And Daryl has made some observations over the previous several months. So, I’ve got Julie at the door. She’s not real cooperative. Julie eventually tells us it’s time for you guys to leave. We get enough attention around here from parole and probation coming around. We don’t want the cops here. “Robert is not home right now. I promise you. Yes, he does have a little girl with him who’s six. She’s like his goddaughter, and they’re not here right now. If you see him, he’s got a certain color truck and he might be down at the park.” Okay. I don’t want him at a park either.

Yeardley:  No. Can I ask you, are sex offenders allowed to live in the same house, or could that be a condition of your parole that you’re also not allowed to hang out with a sex offender? or, for instance, in this case, children.

Dave:  Certainly children. Certain people get the flag, no contact with minor children, no going around schools or playgrounds like you get all these conditions, but that’s not the case in this situation. So, in this situation, there’s nothing prohibiting Daryl and Robert from living together. They are outside of the boundaries that would put them inside like 1000ft of a school. So, Robert and Daryl are both living kind of where they can, based on geographic location. And they’re not close friends, they’re roommates. So, there’s no loyalty here other than they probably both hate that they’re registered sex offenders. But I get a completely different read from Daryl than I do from Robert. Robert knows the game. We go back to my first interview with Robert on the public indecency case, and he’s like, “Do you see my penis on the video?” Like, you’re like, mother–, okay, all right. Got it. Game on.

 So, I’ve got Julie, who dismisses Sergeant Bryan and I, and she basically tells us, “Get off my property.” Okay. I don’t see Robert’s truck there. So, I’m like, all right. As Sergeant Bryan and I are walking back to our cars, Robert passes by us in his truck, and I see a six-year-old girl in the passenger seat. And he pulls into his driveway as we walk back to Robert’s residence. And the six-year-old, her name’s Miranda. She sits in the passenger seat while I have Robert step out and I talk to him a few yards away. The girl can’t hear what I’m saying. Miranda’s just being occupied by Sergeant Bryan, who’s checking on her in the passenger seat.

 And then I’m talking to Robert in the yard, and I say, “Robert, remember me?” “Yeah, I remember you.” And I was like, “And I remember you. What’s this all about? Why are you with a six-year-old?” And Robert tells me, “Well, that’s my friend. I have a friend named Kristen. She works a ton of hours and it’s summertime. She’s in the hospitality industry, so weddings, parties, that kind of thing. She is working her ass off all summer. She doesn’t have a ton of family and friends in the area. She truly is single mom trying to support her kids. She’s got Miranda, who’s six.” And then Kristen has older children who are early adults, and they live outside the area. So, Kristen really has limited options when it comes to childcare.

 And Robert had met Kristen through this church community group years prior and had known Robert for years, and only in the last several months after getting slammed by business, where Kristen has to be at work way more often than she was in the winter. Now Kristen needs some help with childcare. So. Robert sees himself as Miranda’s godfather and offers, “Hey, I can watch your kid while you’re working, Kristen.” And Kristen says, “Okay. Like, it’ll be here and there, but I appreciate the help.”

Yeardley:  Does she know about Robert’s past?

Dave:  And that’s the thing. This is that conversation I’m having with Robert in his yard/driveway. And I asked Robert, “I said, who is Miranda to you?” And he says, “Oh, that’s my goddaughter and it’s Kristen’s daughter. And she needed some help with childcare, so every once in a while, I help her out.” I said, “Okay, well, I’m a sex crimes detective, and I know your past, and I know you are off parole, but I know what you’ve done, and I’m very concerned that you have a six-year-old girl with you based on your past.” And he says, “I appreciate your due diligence, detective, and I would expect you to serve the public in the manner that you’re doing.”

Dan:  Totally patronizing.

Dave:  Really patronizing. But it also exhibits a comfort with the system and a comfort with law enforcement. Most people wouldn’t say shit like that to a detective.

Yeardley:  Right. And he’s positioning himself like, I’m cooperating. I see what you’re doing, and I think you’re doing the right thing.

Dave:  Absolutely.

Yeardley:  It’s bullshit.

Dave:  So, I’m very concerned. I say, “What’s Miranda’s mother’s phone number? Because we’re going to have a chat, because I’m guessing Kristen, Miranda’s mother, does not know about your past.” And he says, “Oh, no. I gave her a full disclosure about my past.” I said, “What’d you tell her?” “I told her exactly what you know about me and that’s all in the past and that I don’t do that stuff anymore.” I said, “Okay, I’m going to go call Kristen right now and see what she has to say.”

[Break 3]

 I call Kristen, and she’s confused. Like, “Why is a detective calling me? Is there something wrong with my daughter?” And I said, “No, no. Everything’s fine. Here’s what I’m out on. What do you know about Robert?” “Oh, he’s a friend who walks me through the church, and I’ve known him for years, but last few months, he’s helped me out with childcare because I don’t really have any other options. And I’m working double the hours that I usually work.” I’m like, “Okay.” And she goes, “Why are you calling me?” I said, “What did Robert tell you about his past? Because Robert assured me that you know the full disclosure about his past.” And she goes, “Oh, yeah. He told me he went to prison.” And I said, “What did he go to prison for?” And she said, “Oh, like, back in the early 1980s, he got into a bar fight that turned nasty, and he ended up in prison for a few months. And that’s why he’s a convicted felon.”

 And I said, “I want to tell you what really happened over the last few decades in Robert’s life.” And I spilled the beans to her. And I’m glad Kristen didn’t get in a car wreck, because Kristen was appropriately going full mama bear. Like, “I am on my way right now.” I’m like, “We’re here, don’t hurt yourself, coming to the scene like a cop who’s driving way over his head.” I need you to relax. So, we’re sitting around just chit chatting with Robert, because Robert knows the game. So, I start asking Robert questions, like, “Tell me about Miranda. Kristen’s on her way. She’s going to pick up Miranda. But I want to know about your interactions with Miranda.” And he goes, ‘Like I said, babysitter. That’s all I do. She’s like a goddaughter. I would never hurt her. I love her to death. I love her mom to death.”

 And I said, “Have you ever touched her inappropriately? Ever done anything that would get you in trouble with a guy like me, Robert?” Robert says, “Absolutely not. Again, I appreciate you doing your due diligence.” And I’m like, “Okay.” I don’t have anything. Right? I have a guy who’s not on parole who doesn’t have any sanction against being with the child. And I’ve got a mom who left her child with this guy.

Yeardley:  So, Dave, I have a question, actually. If Robert was, in fact, arrested and convicted for sexually assaulting a child all those years ago, and he’s a registered sex offender, why aren’t there any restrictions on him being around children?

Dave:  So Robert was already off parole, so he’s got no supervision. And Robert’s charges stem from the time before those laws came into effect. So, essentially, when Robert gets out of prison and finishes a certain short period of time after being free of not committing a crime, now he’s released from his parole conditions, and Robert can go about his life just like anybody else. So, there’s no sanction, there’s no prohibition in Robert’s post-prison supervision once he’s free from it, from being around children.

Yeardley:  That’s really interesting. If you’re a registered sex offender, whether or not you assaulted a grownup or a child, are you prohibited from being around children now or is it only if you assaulted a child?

Dan:  I’ve never been involved in those types of meetings, but my assumption would be, if your sex offenses don’t include children, there would be no need to prevent you from being around children. I might be getting that wrong. I just know that the punishment has to fit the crime. So, if we’re preventing you or prohibiting you from doing certain activities and it has nothing to do with your criminal behavior, I’d be curious if a court can make that jump. Really, we’re way out of my knowledge base here.

Yeardley:  Yeah, I’m guessing you’re right though. I do think, given how specifically you all need to adhere to the letter of the law and the burden that is placed on you guys to build a case and bring evidence in order to get somebody held accountable, it makes sense to me that they would say, “Well, so and so didn’t offend on children. So, okay, go ahead and babysit, be a boy scout leader, do whatever you need to do.”

Dan:  Yeah. And I’ll leave it open that if we have a listener out there who has put post-prison supervision packages together, I would love to hear from them and hear how they make these determinations on what sanctions are applied to which offenders when they are out after their parole dates.

Yeardley:  Right. Okay, back to your case. Dave, what is Kristen’s demeanor now that she’s actually at the scene with you and Robert and Miranda?

Dave:  So, clearly, she’s been duped, but mom is handling this exactly the way I want a mom to handle this. Mom is fired up on the ball, not disregarding or minimizing. She’s like, “I’m coming to get my kid.”

Yeardley:  Or saying, but I’m sure he’s changed because I’ve known him for years. Right. She’s not doing any of that.

Dave:  No.

Dan:  What you always hear is, well, I’ve never seen him offend.

Yeardley:  Right.

Dan:  They don’t typically offend when there are witnesses present.

Dave:  Yeah.

Yeardley:  What is Miranda, the little six-year old’s demeanor when she’s talking to Bryan?

Dave:  Miranda is jovial. Miranda is a bubbly six-year-old girl. When Robert pulled up with Miranda, Miranda just had her head down, looking down in her lap. Nothing that made me go, “Oh, shit, she’s been victimized. Nothing like that. I’m hoping for the best. I hope Robert did not get his hands on Miranda. I’m worried. “I’m not going to do a field interview because the child hasn’t made a disclosure of that man over there, Robert always puts his hands on me. I’m taking it for what it is that an employee saw Robert with a little girl and we’re doing a welfare check.

 Kristen shows up and Robert should probably thank me for getting in her way, [Yeardley laughs] because Kristen would have destroyed him. Kristen’s really mad, and I understand why, and I was proud of her. She’s doing exactly what I want from mom. Like, “Don’t fuck with my kid.”

Yeardley:  Yeah. And you lied to me.

Dave:  Yeah. And it’s clear in this brief couple minute meeting in Robert’s front yard when Kristen shows up that the baby sitting’s over with. Kristen drives Miranda back home, and I’m sure it was a tearful ride home. I can’t imagine what a parent is dealing with when they get hit with this kind of news from a detective on the phone. I go back to my office with Sergeant Bryan, and I’m like, “Robert is a fucking problem.” And he’s like, “No, I agree. What are you going to do?” And I’m like, “Well, [laughs] I don’t have anything. I don’t have anything.” But I’m like, “I’m going to get something at some point.” And while I’m at my desk, my phone rings, and it’s Kristen. And she says, “I need you to come to my house right now.” And I said, “What’s going on?”

 On the way home, Miranda was asking, “Why are the police here?” And mom kind of spilled the beans. Like, “They’re worried about Robert and they’re worried about you, and does Robert ever do anything to you?” And Miranda starts making disclosures on the ride home. And I cannot imagine Kristen dealing with this while she’s trying to drive home and really, finally have a couple of moments to let things settle and figure out what the fuck is going on in my life. Kristen’s dealing with a lot. Kristen calls me. I come straight out to her house, and I meet with her and I say, “Hey, what’s going on?” She relays, “Hey. I asked Miranda on the way home if anything had happened with Robert, and she started talking about bath time and nap time.” And I said, “Okay. I said, well, let’s do this.”

 I’m going to schedule a forensic interview for Miranda. And did so while I was at the house. And that interview was scheduled for the next morning, which never happens. Usually, it’s a week or two.

Yeardley:  Because they’re so booked up.

Dave:  Because they’re so booked up. They had a cancellation that day and the next spot available came open. I’m like, [Yeardley laughs] “Hey, God.”

Yeardley:  Thanks, God.

Dave:  I see you smiling. So, I said, I don’t want to field interview your child. Since Miranda is making disclosures right now, I don’t want to blur that or muddy the waters. Let’s just get her interview tomorrow by the pros. So, it’s a quick meeting. It’s 10 minutes out at Kristen’s house. And I’m thinking we’ll just meet tomorrow morning, and then we’ll start moving. But for now, I don’t really have anything, and I don’t want to muddy the waters. I leave the house, and I’m walking off the front porch. So, we’re talking within four or five steps, I’m off the front porch, and the door opens, and it’s Kristen. And she says, “I just told her, you don’t have to be afraid of police. They’re here to protect you.” And Miranda said, “Bring him back in.”

Yeardley:  Oh.

Dave:  And I just got chills saying it because I remember going, “Oh, shit, here we go.” And I walked up to the door, and Miranda peeked out from her mom’s legs and said, “You can come inside.”

Yeardley:  Oh. It’s killing me.

Dave:  Like, I got chills again. I walk inside and I tell Kristen, “Hey, I want you to wait outside while I speak to your daughter here in the kitchen. That way, nobody’s going to come back and be like, mom’s right in the background coaching her up.” I understand that’s going to be a defense in this case because mom and Miranda were on the road driving home. So, I speak to Miranda very briefly. We’re talking less than three minutes. And I said, “Hey, I understand that you wanted to talk to me.” And she said, “Yeah, are you here about Robert?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Robert touches me down there.” And she’s pointing down her body. And I said, “Okay, when you say he touches you, what are you talking about?” And she says, “Bath times and when I have to take a nap, I don’t want to ever see Robert again.”

Yeardley:  Wow.

Dave:  And there’s more detail. I’m not going to go there. But the gist is Miranda’s been sexually abused. It’s not full-on rape, full on sodomy. It’s inappropriate touching. That’s enough for me. So, I’m like, “All right, I have PC to arrest Robert right now based on this field interview.” Compelling circumstances, did not feel coached, the timeline on this is really tight.

Yeardley:  But also, I should think it’d be incredibly compelling to have the mother say, “Miranda wants you to come back,” and then have her say to “You can come in.”

Dave:  Right? So, I feel really good. I go home that night, I’m going to arrest Robert, but I want to hear more. So, we’re going to wait for this forensic interview to happen. So, go to the forensic interview. Miranda gives pretty much the same disclosure that she gave me the night before, but she kind of shuts down. And I’m like, “I understand.” It’s overwhelming, but it’s enough for me to get a couple of charges of sex abuse. And I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to arrest Robert, and then the work’s going to start.” While I’m at the forensic interview, I meet with Kristen. When I left Kristen’s house the night before, Kristen was really worried. And Kristen’s phone starts blowing up, and it’s Robert calling and texting her.

 And Kristen was freaked out and Kristen gathered her daughter and a couple overnight bags, and they went to stay at a different house with friends. Like, “Emergency, get me out of here. I don’t want Robert coming to my house.” So, Kristen and Miranda hadn’t been back to their house before this forensic interview. So, they go home after the interview, and when Kristen gets home, she realizes her house been burglarized overnight.

[music]

Yeardley:  Oh, my God. Okay, Small Town Fam. There is lots more to come, but we’re going to put a pin in it right here and pick up again next week with Part 2 of Running to Ground. Now for a sneak peek at today’s new bonus episode.

Dave:  I see a lot of comments online about sex offenders never get, never get what they deserve. They never get a true lengthy prison sentence. It’s just not the case with me in the state that I worked unless you have huge issues with your case, that’s going to make it difficult to prosecute or get a guilty verdict or a guilty plea, that is the bar. Like, if we can’t get there, then I don’t want to label somebody with this if I can’t prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. So, what do we do?

Yeardley:  It’s complicated. To listen today’s bonus episode and access hundreds more, go to smalltowdicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button.

[music]

 Small Town Dicks was created by Detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yeardley Smith. Our senior editor is Soren Begin and our editors are Christina Bracamontes and Erin Phelps. Our associate producers are the Real Nick Smitty and Erin Gaynor. Gary Scott is our executive producer and Logan Heftel is our production manager. Our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell. And our social media maven is Monika Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at @smalltowndicks, we love hearing from you.

 Oh, our groovy theme song was composed by John Forrest. Also, if you’d like to support the making of this podcast, go to hop smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button. There, for a small subscription fee, you’ll find exclusive content you can’t get anywhere else.

 The transcripts of this podcast are thanks to SpeechDocs and they can be found on our website, smalltowndicks.com. Thank you SpeechDocs for this wonderful service. Small Town Dicks is an Audio 99 Production. Small Town Fam, thanks for listening.

 Nobody is better than you.

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