Paul:  Hey, Small Town Fam. This is Paul Holes. Make sure you subscribe to The Briefing Room with Detectives Dan and Dave. Season 2 is out now. Subscribe now and thanks.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Zibby:  This episode marks the second and final episode of Thurston, A High School Shooting. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we encourage you to go back and listen to that one before continuing.

[music]

Yeardley:  I’m Yeardley.

Zibby:  And I’m Zibby. And we’re fascinated by true crime.

Yeardley:  So, we invited our friends, Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby:  To sit down with us and share their most interesting cases.

Dan:  I am Dan.

Dave:  And I’m Dave.

Dan:  We’re identical twins.

Dave:  And we’re detectives in Small Town, USA.

Dan:  Dave investigates sex crimes and child abuse.

Dave:  Dan investigates violent crimes. And together, we’ve worked on hundreds of cases including assaults, robberies, murders, burglaries, sex abuse and child abuse.

Dan:  Names, places and certain details including relationships have been altered to protect the privacy of the victims and their families.

Dave:  Though we realize that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we hope you’ll join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved out of respect for what they’ve been through. Thank you.

[music]

Yeardley:  Melissa was one of the students in the cafeteria the morning the shooter, a student who had been suspended for having a stolen gun in his locker the day before, opened fire on his peers. Melissa was shot in the shoulder. The bullet missed her heart by a quarter of an inch, and still, she survived her injury. In a rare interview, she sits down with us to talk about her experience that day. We begin with a recording of her meeting Donnie Jr. and his father, Don Sr, who were among the first police officers to respond to the 911 calls that morning. Melissa had asked if she could meet and thank them personally, since she hadn’t had the chance that horrific day in the cafeteria. Of course, both men were happy to oblige.

 Junior, do you think you’ll recognize Melissa when you see her today?

Donnie Jr:  I can guarantee I would not have recognized her in the cafeteria. That’s for damn sure.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Donnie Jr:  She may have made my watch list later on as far as victims, but that would probably be the only thing.

Yeardley:  What’s a watch list for victims?

Donnie Jr:  As the day progressed, dispatch typed up a list that they had admitted into the hospital, deceased. They actually got that list out to me since I was doing crowd control at the church. And for whatever reason, I kept that list and I wore it every single day. I was wrong on a couple of them. I actually have mark deceased by a couple people that pulled through, but the radio traffic was is it’s not looking good, they’re not going to make it. So, I’d make those notes because if I ran into that parent, I’d be able to talk to them. I came across it a couple years ago and I was like, “I don’t need this anymore.” Pitched it, and it was like, “Huh.” I wore it every day on patrol, I had it in my business card pouch anytime I worked armed stuff, and it was like, “You know what? We’re done with this stuff.” So, it was weird. But I wonder if her name is on there.

Yeardley:  Melissa.

Melissa:  Hi.

Yeardley:  Hi. I’m Yeardley.

Melissa:  Melissa. Hi, nice to meet you.

Yeardley:  Such a pleasure. So nice to meet you.

Donnie Jr:  Melissa, I am Donnie [beep] Jr.

Melissa:  Hi.

Donnie Jr:  I was one of the responding patrol officers that morning. So, I was actually in the cafeteria there.

Melissa:  Well, so was I. [giggles] It’s an honor to meet you.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah.

Melissa:  Thank you for being there.

Donnie Jr:  No, I’m glad you’re here with us today.

Don:  And I’m his father, but I was also there as a detective and-

Melissa:  Nice to meet you.

Don:  -it’s good to meet you.

Melissa:  Thanks for being there too. [crosstalk]

Don:  Well, yes. It was our job. It was a bad situation, but sounds like it turned out as best it could for you.

Melissa:  Yeah. Life is good.

Don:  Yeah.

Melissa:  I’m glad I’m here.

Don:  We’re glad you’re here.

Melissa:  Thank you.

Yeardley:  We’re really looking forward to hearing your side of the story, your experience. Really appreciate it. So, important to shine a light on what is truly a historical event, because it was the beginning of so many of these. So, we appreciate it so much.

Melissa:  I’m looking forward to it. I’m a little nervous, [Yeardley laughs] but I think it’ll be good.

Yeardley:  It’ll be great.

Donnie Jr:  Glad you’re here. It’ll be good to have a different perspective. All of ours was law enforcement. And what we saw that day and what we were thinking, and so having your perspective on that event, it would even be good for me because it’s like, I never really got to talk to any of the victim. We went on with life afterwards.

Yeardley:  True.

Donnie Jr:  We were back on patrol, and you guys were getting over that, and ending the school year and being kids, and it was like, everybody just went their separate ways.

Melissa:  Well, none of us ever stopped thinking about you, guys. We all appreciated you guys a lot.

Donnie Jr:  Oh, that’s cool.

Don:  What hospital did you go to?

Melissa:  I was at [beep].

Don:  Yeah, I talked to patients there. And then at the time, the hospital in Eugene was downtown, and I went over there and talked to some folks.

Melissa:  I’ve talked to you at some point in my life. You look familiar to me.

Don:  Yeah, it was probably then. You probably had a lot more important matters on your mind.

Melissa:  Yeah. Realizing I was allergic to morphine was one of them. [giggles] So, I was pretty sick in the hospital.

Don:  That was really– [crosstalk] My gosh.

Melissa:  So, I don’t remember a whole lot went on when I was in there.

Yeardley:  I can’t imagine that’s something you ever thought you’d actually find out.

Melissa:  Yeah. I’d never been in the hospital before, so I had no idea. Found out real quick.

Don:  And then to find out when you’re in trauma situation and you need it. That’s just made a bad day worse– [crosstalk]

Melissa:  Yeah, a little bit. It worked out.

Yeardley:  Do you remember being asked questions by the police?

Melissa:  No.

Yeardley:  Really?

Melissa:  Not in the hospital at all. No, I remember seeing faces that I didn’t know, but that was it.

Don:  In the emergency room there, every little cubicle was filled with another kid. Were you conscious of other kids there?

Melissa:  Mm-hmm. I remember the emergency room. Oh, yeah. The only thing I don’t remember is that when I woke up from recovery, that’s when I don’t remember a whole lot. That’s when people were trying to talk to me. I don’t remember a whole lot about that. I only remember waking up in the recovery room and having dreams about the shooting. The whole time I was asleep, and I woke up with people in beds next to me, and I’m thinking I’m in a morgue. And I’m waking up, I’m cursing, I’m yelling, I’m ripping stuff out of me, yelling, “I’m not dead. Get me out of here.” I remember that. And that’s pretty much it. I remember them wheeling me to my room, and there was a bunch of people waiting for me, family and some other people I had no idea who they were.

Don:  Do you remember when you got shot, who the first person was to get to you?

Melissa:  I do. I remember all that. Yup. I remember there was this young lady who was a little bit older than me. I was a freshman at the time when it happened, and she was an upper-class man. I remember what she looks like, smells like, what she was wearing and everything. Never seen the woman again in my life. It was very strange.

Yeardley:  Really?

Melissa:  I’ve never had anything like that happen. I looked through the yearbook, I did everything to try to find her, and nothing ever.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Melissa:  It was very strange. And then I blacked out. My vision went black. I was still walking. I had a friend of mine. His name was Devin. He was walking me out of the cafeteria over into the office, and then my vision came back, and I remember that, and that’s when the paramedics showed up.

Don:  They got in an ambulance?

Melissa:  Yeah, I was third or fourth to go, because they thought it punctured my lung. So, I took off. I rode an ambulance up front with another victim in the back. I got shot in the leg, and so we rode together. I remember telling jokes to the paramedic because I was in shock, and he’s like, “Honey, I don’t want to be rude, but you got to be quiet.” And I’m like, “Okay.”

[laughter]

Melissa:  He’s like, “We’re going pretty fast. We got to get you to hospital.” I’m like, “Whatever. Fine.” I was a teenager. So, I sat in the front seat. Just minded my own business then until we got to the hospital.

Don:  Did you know the kid in the back that got shot?

Melissa:  I didn’t know her at the time, but I know who it is now.

Donnie Jr:  We were talking about it earlier, it was before cell phones and social media, all that. Now an event like that happens, and everyone’s so drawn together with text and social media and groups and stuff. You guys are all just kids, and it was just a simpler time. It’s like, you saw someone that day and you never saw them again. We would run into a victim every once in a while, “Hey, I was in the cafeteria that day,” whether it was a traffic stop or they were a victim on a call. But I’ve never talked to anyone from that day other than the other cops, the first responders, and it sounds like even with victims or even meeting us, we just all kept going. It was like, “Here’s this horrible event that brought us all together,” and then we’ve all just gone on with our life. But we all remember that day, the smells, the sights, who was there.

Melissa:  Everything. Yeah.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah.

Melissa:  We’re such a small community, but, yeah, we’ve all just kind of. The social media thing nowadays is crazy. Like, posting to the wall was the fence outside the school.

Donnie Jr and Don:  Yeah.

Donnie Jr:  That fence grew and grew and grew.

Melissa:  It did.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah, that memorial out there–

Melissa:  It absolutely did. The community was fantastic. But yeah, time goes on, and things just spread apart. Yeah, you’re right.

Don:  Yeah, that’s true. Posting to the wall was an actual– [crosstalk]

Melissa:  Yeah. Was our fence.

Don:  -fence out there, put notes and memorials and stuff.

Dan:  Is that why Clinton came town, was because of that?

Melissa:  Yes.

Don:  Yeah.

Melissa:  We all got to meet him personally and stuff in the library at Thurston, and each family had their own little table, and he came to everybody’s table, and talked to all of us for a while, and took photos with us and stuff.

Don:  Yeah.

Donnie Jr:  See, that was another thing with the small department is we went from dealing with the shooting to investigating it to then the president coming. And so, that takes everybody. Plus, to get that going, I think I was assigned to work with secret service advanced team on that. And it’s like, “Well, I’ve got 50 more interviews to do.” [chuckles] But it’s like, “Well, too bad. The President’s coming and we don’t have any more people.” It was a good visit. He didn’t do anything to politicize the issue. He came and just met with all you kids and your families and administrators.

Melissa:  Yeah, I think he was. He was fantastic.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah.

Dan:  And you’re friends with [beep], right?

Melissa:  Yeah, we were classmates.

Dan:  Yeah.

Melissa:  Yeah, I don’t do anything for the papers or anything like that. And she’s like, “Well, would you mind doing this? What do you think?” And I know her, and so I’m like, “Okay, I feel comfortable doing that then.” But they contacted me about the anniversary, a bunch of different papers locally and up north, “Will you do this?” I’m like, “No, sorry. [giggles] I won’t.” I just don’t like the way they do it.

Yeardley:  We’re so grateful. Thank you. To be continued on Sunday.

Melissa:  Sounds good.

Donnie Jr:  It was nice meeting you-

Melissa:  Super nice to meet you. [laughs]

Don:  -and or seeing you again.

Melissa:  Right. Absolutely.

Don:  [laughs] Under much better circumstances this time.

Melissa:  Definitely better.

Don:  You may not remember because you were in shock. I may not remember because I’m getting old.

[laughter]

Melissa:  Use that for an excuse.

Don:  [laughs] Okay.

Melissa:  I’m just kidding.

[Break 1]

Yeardley:  Today on Small Town Dicks, we have one of the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Dan:  Glad to be back.

Yeardley:  Detective Dave is once again off fighting crime in Small Town, USA. Such is the life of being promoted to sergeant. [giggles] We miss you, Dave. But we are so pleased to have two special guests this afternoon. Melissa, thank you for coming back for a proper sit down with us to tell us about your experience that fateful morning in May 1998.

Melissa:  Hello.

Yeardley:  We are also very pleased to welcome back retired officer, Donnie.

Donnie Jr:  Thank you for having me.

Yeardley:  So, Melissa, you were a student at Thurston on that day?

Melissa:  Yes, I was.

Yeardley:  Take us through the day that day.

Melissa:  I was a freshman, and I had just transferred two months prior from [beep] high school because our school burnt down. So, I was transferring into town because I didn’t want to go to school in those small trailers. It was just a mess. So, I was at school early that day. I have a friend of the family who was an assistant teacher, used to drive me to school. So, I got there a little early and sat in the cafeteria, which I also never had done.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Melissa:  It was the senior breakfast that morning, and I’m a freshman, so I shouldn’t have been in there anyway, probably. [Yeardley laughs] But I was in there with some friends, and we were hanging out. It was 07:56 AM when the door flew open and just shots were being fired. It was very scary. A lot of people were giggling and screaming, thinking it was a prank for the senior breakfast that morning.

Zibby:  Really?

Melissa:  Growing up with a military father and out in the country shooting guns my whole life, I knew it wasn’t a joke.

Zibby:  Where were you sitting, if you recall, sitting in relationship to where the door flung open?

Melissa:  I was at the tables furthest away, second table from the front with my back to that door.

Zibby:  Oh, yeah. You remember exactly.

Melissa:  I remember. Mm-hmm.

Zibby:  And although many students weren’t registering the sounds as being gunshots, you knew exactly what it was. What did you do? Did you immediately get down on the ground? I mean, we talk a lot on this show about the freeze fight or flea response.

Melissa:  It was freeze for me.

Zibby:  Really?

Melissa:  I didn’t want to jump up and run. I thought I’d be a target if I did that. I was completely still, didn’t move.

Yeardley:  And meanwhile, you said, yeah, you’re back to the door. So, do you not even turn around to see where the shots are coming from or who’s shooting?

Melissa:  I hear it. I know where they’re coming from. So, I didn’t bother turning around. I knew.

Zibby:  What were your friends doing.

Melissa:  Once everybody realized what was actually happening, there was people hitting the floor and people screaming, and there was blood flying. It was awful.

Zibby:  Do you recall how long the shooting lasted? And I also know that how long it was and how long it can feel are two different things.

Melissa:  I have no idea.

Zibby:  Really?

Melissa:  I don’t know how long it lasted. All I know is there was bullets spraying back and forth across the cafeteria, which seemed like forever, until that brave guy got up and tackled him to the ground, which was a lifesaver for many of us.

Yeardley:  A student got up and tackled the shooter to the ground. But you still got hit by one of the bullets.

Melissa:  I did. Yeah, in the back of my left shoulder.

Zibby:  When you were hit, did you know in that instant?

Melissa:  Oh, yeah.

Zibby:  And was it instant pain?

Melissa:  No. It didn’t hurt. It was a burning sensation, and that was it. I didn’t have any pain at that time.

Zibby:  And did you call out or were you still in frozen mode?

Melissa:  I was still frozen. There was an arm that came up from behind, like, between the tables, grabbed me by my neck, and pulled me down on top of them right after I got hit. I remember the girl who grabbed me. She was never seen again by me. I know what she was wearing, what she looked like, how she smelt everything about her.

Zibby:  She grabbed you in protection?

Melissa:  She pulled me down after I got shot. Yeah.

Yeardley:  And then you never saw her again?

Melissa:  Never again.

Yeardley:  And I remember you said, when we were talking earlier that you even looked for her in the yearbook and you couldn’t find her.

Melissa:  I didn’t. No resemblance to anybody’s picture I saw.

Zibby:  You’re kidding.

Melissa:  I’ve heard those stories before from people, and I’ve never really believed that, but I wholeheartedly do now.

Zibby:  Because instantly, I’m like, “Oh, that was angel.”

Yeardley:  That’s what I thought too.

Zibby:  Right. Has that crossed your mind?

Melissa:  Yeah, of course.

Zibby:  Did you have a sense that the shooter was a student, was a contemporary?

Melissa:  I had no idea. Like I said, I didn’t turn around to look. I wasn’t sure. Body shape, size, I mean, anything about him.

Yeardley:  Obviously, you were injured, so they carried you into an ambulance at some point. Was he still there, or Donnie had you guys taken him into custody, perhaps?

Donnie Jr:  He was probably one of the first bodies out of there. We escorted him out. I know well before any medics arrived, we had to secure that scene. So, he probably would have been gone relatively quickly after the shots.

Yeardley:  Right.

Zibby:  So the shooter was removed before any of the other students.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah, he was in custody and he was let out to a patrol car.

Zibby:  Do you recall watching any of that bit?

Melissa:  No, not at all. A friend of mine led me out of the cafeteria and went across the breezeway into the office. And that’s probably when he was being escorted out with the officers. And then we all came back into the cafeteria to wait for the paramedics, which was very hard.

Zibby:  And when you say it was very hard, I can imagine why. But do you mean physically, emotionally? What was that like waiting?

Melissa:  It was brutal. I mean, we had white walls then, so there was blood, the smell, everything. To this day, the smell of fresh baked bread, I can’t handle.

Zibby:  Why?

Yeardley:  Really?

Melissa:  They were making it in the cafeteria that morning. Mixed with the ammunition and everything else that was going on smell wise in the cafeteria. That’s one thing that I just lose it and start crying.

Zibby:  Really?

Melissa:  Mm-hm.

Yeardley:  So, the student body had to return to the cafeteria to wait amongst the blood and the other bodily fluids and all the sheer chaos. Did you guys have anybody to tell you what to do? Were there teachers around? I mean, what was the protocol?

Melissa:  We had teachers, staff walking around, helping us out, asking us, “Would you like anything? Can I get you a blanket? Are you comfortable enough, until the paramedics arrive. Are you okay?” A bunch of people walking around offering us water. And then the health occupations teacher comes walking around, “No, no water,” because we all probably had to have surgery. So, he’s like, “No, don’t eat or drink anything. Just stay calm, try to relax, and they’ll be here shortly.”

Yeardley:  Obviously, I’m assuming you were in shock. Were you shaking? Who was with you? Was somebody holding you, or were you left to your own devices because you were obviously not so injured that you’d been rendered unconscious?

Melissa:  The teachers kept scrambling around, came to all of us frequently, “How are you doing? Are you okay?” And I had somebody sitting with me. I’m not sure who it was. It was a student. I’m not sure who.

Zibby:  I’m struck by that period of waiting after the event, after being shot. Because in my mind, I’m like, “Oh, all the ambulances from all over the entire state just rush there, and everybody’s rushed to the hospital.” But it sounds like there’s time, and teachers are circulating and asking if you’re okay and making decisions like, “Don’t have water because you’re probably going to have surgery.”

Dan:  Well, if you think about it, this shooting occurs– I have no idea how long the actual duration of that shooting was. But by the time Donnie found out about it, it’s already occurring and it’s old. And by the time ambulances are dispatched and those firefighters are able to get in their ambulances and get there, a lot of things can happen. Even if that response time is five minutes, which is pretty good, a lot of things can happen in five minutes.

Melissa:  Right. I believe they had officers still on campus and nobody was allowed on.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah. Logistically happening in East Springfield, we’ve got several fire stations within a close proximity. So, we had several ambulances, two or three available immediately, but we’re still clearing. This is literally just happening. The shooter is not even in the patrol car yet, and we’re gathering everyone back in the cafeteria, keeping the injured all in one place. We’re not triaging, because there’s like three patrol guys. And now we’re spanning out trying to clear the school. It’s that second wave of first responders, the detectives, additional bodies, the medic units. Now they’re coming in. And finally, realistically, we may be looking at 15 minutes. But for her to sit there for 15 minutes, just waiting is a very long time. And again, we’re looking for other shooters. We’re trying to lock down the school as much as possible.

 We’re dealing with staff, teachers and other students that are now coming out, “Hey, what just happened?” So, it’s still chaos. 15 minutes, an hour, two hours after. But we had medics responding from all over Lane County. There were medic units from Eugene, so just drive time. 25 minutes to get out to East Springfield, but we needed the medics, we needed the ambulance. So, we were doubling, tripling up in the ambulance just to get casualties to the hospital.

Melissa:  I shared an ambulance with another student. They were getting us out of there as fast as they could.

Yeardley:  When did your parents find out?

Melissa:  My mom was at work. Her boss had gone over to the location that she was working and let her know what had happened. She was very uncomfortable and scared and couldn’t drive. He drove her to the hospital to meet me. My father was already at the school and turned away by the police officers, because my dad was very upset. And my dad is a marine in a Vietnam vet. He’s now deceased, but he showed up with some protection, let’s say,-

[laughter]

Melissa:  -and was looking for Kip Kinkel. The officers asked, “What’s your daughter’s name?” He told them, “Said, you need to go to the hospital.” And so, my dad met us over there as well.

Dan:  Were you aware of Kip Kinkel? Had you seen him before, any interaction with him?

Melissa:  I’d only met him in passing one time.

Yeardley:  What year was Kip?

Melissa:  He was the same as me as a freshman.

Yeardley:  Oh, wow.

Zibby:  Did you have any impression of him?

Melissa:  No. I was a small-town country kid, and I was nervous as I’ll get out anyways. Being at a big school– School in town was intimidating. So, it was a little different for me meeting everybody all at once, and it was definitely a different atmosphere than our small school.

Zibby:  Where were you when you found out it was a fellow student?

Melissa:  The hospital, I believe, after recovery. I didn’t know until then.

Zibby:  Oh, man. And what was your surgery? You were shot in the shoulder.

Melissa:  They thought my lung had been punctured, so I went into surgery pretty quick.

Zibby:  But your lung had not been punctured.

Melissa:  No. Missed my heart by a quarter of an inch and missed my lung as well. So, I got very lucky. They removed some of the shrapnel and all that. The bullet was never able to be removed.

Yeardley:  So, it’s still in you?

Melissa:  20 years later, yes, it is.

Yeardley:  Melissa.

Melissa:  I know. It’s crazy.

Yeardley:  Does it show up when you go through the X-ray at the airport?

Melissa:  No, but that’s the question I get every time.

[laughter]

Melissa:  It’s lead, so I don’t go off.

Yeardley:  Right. [laughs].

Zibby:  In those days following, what was that like for you and your friends? What was the community like? What was that atmosphere?

Melissa:  The nurses were fantastic. My surgeon was amazing. And I was only in the hospital three days, and then they released me to go home. But I wanted to go to the high school to see what the fence looked like, because I had heard that a bunch of people had decorated our fence for us. So, I went out there immediately. Big poster boards, flowers, balloons that whole fence was covered.

Zibby:  What was that like for you when you saw it?

Melissa:  It was emotional, but in a good way. The community was unbelievable.

Yeardley:  Once you got home and started to recover emotionally, did you continue to have dreams about the shooting? I don’t know if you’d call that PTSD, but did you have something like that?

Melissa:  That’s what I call it.

Zibby:  PTSD.

Melissa:  Yeah. It was almost nightly for a month or two. As soon as, I fell asleep, the whole thing would replay in my head every time I was asleep.

Zibby:  My God.

Yeardley:  And did it seem like it replayed all night long?

Melissa:  Mm-hmm.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Melissa:  Every time I fell asleep.

Yeardley:  So, that would have made you afraid to go to sleep?

Melissa:  The first couple of weeks, it was a little easier. The Demerol helped. I mean, I was in a lot of pain, so I was waking up in the night to take medication. That’s the only way I could sleep.

Zibby:  And did you seek out counseling? Did they offer counseling to the students involved?

Melissa:  We had a counselor on campus. Yes.

Zibby:  Okay. And was it one counselor that was talking to all of the students?

Melissa:  Yes.

Yeardley:  And was it helpful, or did you feel like it was, “Okay,” they just pat you on the back and send you out the door?

Melissa:  The counselor we had, I don’t remember her name, she was amazing. She was great.

Yeardley:  She didn’t necessarily specialize in high trauma situations.

Melissa:  No.

Zibby:  I guess that’s a part of my curiosity. It’s like, this was one of the first of its kind, not completely, but in many ways, no one would have been prepared for this. Whereas now, it’s a different ballgame. I feel like public schools all over are coming up with plans if something like this, God forbid, should happen. But here’s this small town with no idea that this is something that would befall the school, and you say, the community was amazing. And I go, “How do people even know what to do next?” And I know coming together is a natural thing, but what does that look like? Were there vigils? Were there group meetings? Did you guys have meetings in an auditorium? Was it effective?

Melissa:  We never had group meetings, I wouldn’t say. We met together sometimes at crime victim services, a few of us here and there, and there was people from the Red Cross that would meet with us, and we would talk with them. There wasn’t anything crazy and huge that I can recall or remember. And if there was, I was probably still at that point where I was a little scared and uncomfortable and I didn’t attend. But the community being fantastic. The hospitals were great. They wrote off all of our surgeries, all of our stay. We didn’t pay anything for any of that.

Zibby:  So, none of the victims had to pay for their hospital bills?

Melissa:  We did not. No. I had a second surgery as well a couple of years later, but crime victim services paid for it, because all the money that got donated to the fund, they paid. I had nine years of physical therapy. I didn’t pay for.

Yeardley:  Nine years?

Melissa:  Mm-hmm.

Zibby:  Of the other students who were in that cafeteria for the actual shooting, injured or not, did you come to know fellow students around this event that you hadn’t otherwise mixed and mingled with?

Melissa:  Yes, I did. We helped each other out, supported each other. It was good for about a year. We all still said, “Hello, how are you?” when we saw each other, of course, but it wasn’t as much of a get together type thing at school with everybody anymore.

Yeardley:  Do you still speak to any of the other students who were there that day?

Melissa:  Just on social media. Check in. Hi, how are you? How’s your life? How’s your family? That kind of stuff. Like, we don’t get together. I think we should. I think it’d be great if we did. A bunch of us, all of us. We’d have a 20-year celebration of life party. It’d be nice. We could have been gone a long time ago.

Yeardley:  That’s a great idea.

Zibby:  Guys, were you listening?

[laughter]

Yeardley:  I know. Seriously.

Dan:  Did you go back to Thurston High School?

Melissa:  I did.

Dan:  What’s it like walking on campus again?

Melissa:  The first time was very difficult. My dad being the military guy he is, he told me if you fall off a horse, you get back on and you got ambushed once, it’ll never happen again. You need to go. So, I did. I had a friend of mine, her name was Maria, and she walked me through the cafeteria and walked with me. I wanted to go through the cafeteria, and I wanted to exit the door that he entered. And just for my own mental state, I had to do that, but it was difficult. I went to school shortly after I got out of the hospital. I had a couple days at the coast. My brother was in the marine corps, and they flew him home to be with us. And so, we spent a few days at the coast as the family, and then I went back to school.

Zibby:  I know you did maybe two interviews back then about the shooting. How come you stopped after that?

Melissa:  I just felt like the local news gave a lot of publicity to the shooter and gave him the fame that he was after. I didn’t like that at all. So, I stopped.

Zibby:  On a scale of one to five, five being so difficult, difficult similar to the way you described it being difficult talking to media back then and one being like way, way easier. Where are you even in this conversation talking about it?

Melissa:  I’m at a one, for sure. It’s nice here. It’s different.

Zibby:  Yeah. Good. Do you talk about it much with friends and family?

Melissa:  I wouldn’t say we talk about it a whole lot anymore. I have a lot of pain still, so sometimes that comes up. And my 14-year-old stepdaughter is like, “Mom, are you not feeling good? Here, I’ll rub it for you. I’ll help you. You want some medicine?” She’s awesome. So, in that sense, yes, it comes up sometimes.

Zibby:  Mm-hmm. And having a 14-year-old stepdaughter, do you ever think about it?

Melissa:  Yeah. She’s going to be a freshman this year.

Zibby:  It’s a public school?

Melissa:  Yup. They have a plan in order.

Zibby:  Do you talk about that plan with her?

Melissa:  I’ve talked to her several times about it. Yes.

Zibby:  How does it make you feel that there’s a plan in place?

Melissa:  It’s horrible that we have to do that, but I’m glad that she knows what she should be doing in case of an emergency.

Zibby:  What do you know of this plan?

Melissa:  The plan she told me they have is they shut and lock the door. They don’t open it for anyone or any reason. They’re hiding, they’re covering themselves and they’re staying right where they’re at.

Zibby:  Is there a plan for if the shooter is in the room with you?

Melissa:  That’s a good question, not that I’m aware of.

Zibby:  Does anybody know what a plan would be? Because I’m sure every school has a different protocol based on layout, size of campus, etc. But this is an ambush situation. And so, a plan is one thing in theory, but it’s very different in practice.

Dan:  If you’ve got a shooter in the room, what these boys did and attacked him is heroic. I don’t even have the words for it, what they did. Those guys are amazing.

Yeardley:  The students.

Dan:  Yeah. If this shooter or wherever you’re at is just going to walk around indiscriminately in this room and just start shooting people, please, fight. Fight for your life. That’s my advice to anyone.

Zibby:  Your dad’s advice about, you were ambushed once. It’s not going to happen again, that’s a pretty cool way to look at it. But I also could see my own self walking that fine line of being completely terrified. Where do you fall in that? Do you find yourself more trepidatious in the world?

Melissa:  I’m much more aware of my surroundings, what other people are doing, what I’m doing. I see everything now. My husband and I go to a restaurant. I won’t sit with my back to the door anymore.

Zibby:  You and all these other gentlemen/

Yeardley:  Are all nodding in agreement.

Melissa:  I don’t believe that guns are a bad thing, and I have protection on my own.

Zibby:  So, speaking of that, do you go to the gun range? You know what I mean? Is that something that makes you feel secure is knowing how to use a firearm, and did that come directly out of this experience?

Melissa:  We do go outdoors and we do shoot, but I’ve been shooting since I was a little kid. My dad was in the military, so we grew up on five acres of property, and we’d shoot beer cans off tree branches from our porch.

Yeardley:  Are you a good shot?

Melissa:  Mostly.

[laughter]

Melissa:  Yes. If it’s a body, I’m sure I could if I needed to protect myself or my family, absolutely. That’s not something I would ever want to do. But like you said, you fight for your life regardless. And if it’s my family, somebody else’s family and there’s a threat, absolutely.

Dan:  Is there anything you’d like to tell this suspect, want him to know?

Melissa:  I told him during the trial.

Yeardley:  You did?

Melissa:  I did. I had a three-page paper written that, I don’t know what I was thinking, because it was very nerve wracking. I walked up, and they gave all of us a chance to talk, and I said, “You’re sitting there listening to all of us, and you tried to take all of our lives. At least look at me when I’m talking to you.” And he did. It was very scary, but I’m sure heard what I said. I remember asking him, “How are you going to feel at thanksgiving when you can’t sit with your parents, when you can’t be with your sister? And if your sister was home, would you have killed her too?” I feel for his sister a lot. She’s an amazing lady. She’s great. She was there during the trial and she was supportive of all of us.And that was really brave of her to be there too.

 And I just asked him, “You’re not going to have a normal life. You’re still a teenager. You can’t go out with your friends and sneak around to a drinking spot or go bowling with your friends or anything that teenagers go do and get into normal type of trouble doing.” I said, “I feel sorry for you, but you did it to yourself.” I am grateful for my life. And it took me a long time. I’ve forgiven him personally myself for what he’s done to me, but I can’t forgive him for everybody else.

Yeardley:  After the defense presented its evidence, Judge Madison heard five hours of statements from 50 victims and members of their families. Unanimously, they called for Madison to give Kinkel, the maximum possible sentence. And they took the opportunity to address Kip directly with their anger and pain. Some described the physical pain from their injuries, Kip had inflicted. Many more described their emotional scars. Children unable to sleep because of nightmares, afraid to go to school, and relationships between parents and children became horribly strained because of the ordeal.

Dan:  Jacob Ryker, I don’t care if you’re sick, if you’re insane, if you’re crazy, I don’t care. I think prison, a lifetime in prison is too good for you. I don’t think you should go to prison. I think the victims should get to do to you what you did to them. I think you should have to suffer in the hospital like they did.

Dave:  Mark Walker, if Mr. Kinkel is sitting in prison without the possibility of release for the rest of his life, it might, just might keep some other young person from taking a gun to school. That would be the only positive thing that could come from this tragedy.

Zibby:  Betina Lynn, I saw so much that day that haunts me. I remember seeing Jesse in front of me with blood all over his white shirt. I saw Jennifer with blood all over her face and neck, and I assumed that she was already dead. I saw a body behind me on the other side of the table, and I didn’t know who it was.

Donnie Jr:  While this prosecution was successful in doing what needed to be done, namely forever protecting society from Mr. Kinkel, in addition to helping our victims feel safe for their lifetimes. There are no winners in this incident. I am pleased for the victims and for our community that Mr. Kinkel has chosen the route that he has taken in the entry of the guilty please–

Male Speaker:  I’m fine with the way things have turned out here right now. And everybody can get back with the life, especially the kids at school.

Melissa:  Our lives, our community and our world has been forever changed. Our innocence has been taken away. Now, we have to figure out how we can rebuild from this tragedy. How we can walk on campus once again, how we can feel safe sitting in a classroom without panicking every time a familiar person walks by, how we can feel safe in the cafeteria?

Yeardley:  Melissa, how long did it take you to forgive him personally?

Melissa:  It’s probably 10 years ago. I had to grow up a little bit myself and figure it out. That was holding me back for a long time.

Zibby:  Was it?

Melissa:  Mm-hmm.

Yeardley:  Can you say in what ways?

Melissa:  My dad told me for years, same thing. Fight for your life always. I just never felt like I could until I finally let that go. It’s always there, but I had to do that for my own well-being.

Yeardley:  Mm-hmm. When you were reading your statement that you’d written when you got a chance to speak in court, did he show any emotion whatsoever?

Melissa:  No.

Yeardley:  Did he ever take his eyes off you?

Melissa:  No. Looked at me the whole time.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Melissa:  And after I spoke, my dad rushed to the front and my dad got escorted out of the courtroom. I remember that.

Yeardley:  Your dad is a firecracker.

Melissa:  My dad just wanted at him, of course, like anybody’s dad would. So, he got asked to leave and he didn’t get asked back in.

[laughter]

Zibby:  How did you feel about that?

Melissa:  It’s nothing that I didn’t experience my whole life. My dad was like that. He’s 5’5”, 130 pounds of crazy. [Zibby laughs],

Yeardley:  Right.

Melissa:  He was a fantastic father.

Yeardley:  What was Kinkel sentenced to?

Dan:  Overall, he was sentenced to 111 years in prison. Based on his plea deal, he loses the right to an insanity defense.

Yeardley:  Oh.

Dan:  So, the final sentence for the 26 attempted murder charges he was facing, he got over 86 years for those. And on top of that, he also got 25 years for the four murders he committed. He was the first juvenile to be sentenced to a natural life sentence in the state of Oregon.

Yeardley: : Oh, wow.

Zibby:  Even though he was tried as an adult, because he was still a juvenile, the courts were limited with how he could be sentenced. Were you okay with his 111-year sentence or were you hoping for something different?

Melissa:  It would have been too easy for him.

Yeardley:  To get the death penalty?

Melissa:  I think so. He’s going to have to think about that every day.

Yeardley:  Every day.

Melissa:  What he did to his family and what he did to several others.

Yeardley:  Mm-hmm.

Zibby:  I know you’ve forgiven him, but do you think about him sitting there in prison?

Melissa:  Yeah, sometimes. I pass it sometimes and I just going to– Yeah, I got some thoughts through my head.

Zibby:  As in you drive by?

Melissa:  We’ve driven by. Yeah. Every year, we go to a fishing derby as a family, and we drive past it, I think about him sitting in there.

Dan:  When you think about this guy and all the fear and all the pain that he’s caused, when he gets put in general population in a prison, he’s not Mr. Olympia by any means. And the level of fear that he probably felt at least the first few times when he’s in that setting is probably pretty satisfying for him to feel fear like that, because he put so many other people through that and put fear in their hearts.

Melissa:  Yup.

Yeardley:  Right. Because there’s this strange pecking order in prison as we’ve come to learn. I imagine that being a mass school shooter might put a target on your back in the eyes of other prisoners, yes?

Donnie Jr:  Well, and even though they’re criminals, they haven’t been involved in a mass shooting of children. So, even to them, this is bad.

Yeardley:  Right.

Donnie Jr:  So, an armed robbery going bad, a murder of a competitive drug dealer or something like that they’re in jail for. Yeah, it’s bad. But when they look at what he did, that’s worse than anything they ever could think of.

Dan:  He’s a coward.

Donnie Jr:  He is. Yeah. And so, even in the ranking among criminals, they want a piece of him.

Yeardley:  He’s low.

Donnie Jr:  Yeah. “How could you do that to kids? I would never hurt a kid.” The con laws or rules or the way they work, you don’t be a coward. You’re not a snitch. There’s certain things that just aren’t accepted. And just about every act he did would rub one of these longtime cons the wrong way, and they would love to get their hands on him. So, yeah, the fear, when he’s out in general population or out in the yard having to watch his back, it’s still not the level of fear he put these kids through, but maybe he’s getting at least a little bit of a taste of it.

[Break 2]

Zibby:  I can’t believe we’re living in a time where I’m about to ask you, guys, how you feel about the long-term effects of this seeming trend of mass shootings in schools and elsewhere. But here we are. You’ve experienced it firsthand. And while I realize this might be a hard question to answer, I’m curious what you think this has done or is doing to us as a people, a community, a town, a city, a culture, you know?

Donnie Jr:  From a law enforcement perspective, we obviously haven’t stopped these shootings. We’ve trained the victims to be a little more prepared. We have policy and procedure in place to make it a little quicker response. We can get medics there faster staging. Our schools are equipped now to at least have high-quality video of some of these shooting. We got video and audio of columbine. Our law enforcement professionals have response policies, our SWAT teams have fast response training, our teachers now have lockdown drills. Working a little bit with local schools as a campus safety director, the elementary kids are taught that if they’re in the bathroom to stand on the toilet, so that the shooter can’t see them through the bottom of the stalls.

Zibby:  Oh.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Donnie Jr:  The fact that we’re teaching seven year-olds and eight-year-olds that, that’s a problem.

Yeardley:  Right.

Donnie Jr:  But at least they have a plan. These kids didn’t have a plan. They were just sitting ducks. They didn’t know what to do. Responding officers, we didn’t have training. We hadn’t experienced this before. So, 20 years later, we’re still having the shootings. We’re just better equipped at handling them. We haven’t changed why they happen, and I don’t know if we will be able to.

Dan:  I guess my theory from a law enforcement perspective is we’ve seen a generational shift in the past 20 years or 30 years. Kids and parenting philosophies are different now. And being a kid, nowadays, is probably way more complex than it was for me when I was growing up back in the 1970s and 1980s. I’m not a parent, but I’d say I’m an expert when it comes to bad parenting because I’ve seen it hundreds of times in my job. We’ve started giving out participation awards to children. I think it teaches some kids they’ll be rewarded for giving absolutely no effort. I think it’s important for parents to explain to their kids that it’s not about the results, it’s about the process. Life is full of failure, and I think a lot of kids are not prepared to deal with it. You can learn a lot from failure.

 And this doesn’t answer the question of why we have active shooters, but it definitely needs to be a part of the conversation. And a little side note. And this is slightly off topic, but I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that law enforcement is all for gun control. We, obviously, don’t want people who shouldn’t have guns having guns in their hands. I think that that’s part of the who, the what, and the why of why these tragedies keep happening.

Zibby:  I totally get that, and I see that everywhere. I just don’t see how it translates into picking up a gun and going to a school and shooting a bunch of your peers. I mean, why is that a specific action that is being repeated over and over and over again?

Dan:  It’s a theory that I have. I think that people who don’t deal with situations like that very well are probably prone to misbehaving and having a blowup session where this is a possibility that that’s where their anger goes from their failures. “I’m going to hurt as many people as I can, and that’s how they deal with it.” And I think that that’s a factor. That’s just the way I feel. I may be full of it.

Melissa:  I think it’s pretty well said. I think that’s a good way to put it.

Yeardley:  And if the underlying emotion of anger is often hurt.

Melissa:  They want other people to hurt along with them.

Zibby:  There are a lot of ways to hurt a big group of people. There are a lot of ways to hurt people and try and assert power. In fact, almost every true crime case that we cover is somebody exerting dominance and power over somebody else, all the way to the extreme of murdering them. But there’s something so specific and now specifically frequent about this one form of taking it out on people.

Dan:  Well, let’s think about the common denominator of the target. It’s a gun free zone. They’re not going to encounter any resistance. You can hurt a lot of people in a very short amount of time, and it’s not very intimate. Hurting someone with a knife, that’s intimate. You’re face to face. With a gun, it’s different. There’s a range there that you can disassociate from having that intimate encounter with your victim. You could probably even argue that it’s kind of anonymous. All you’re doing is pulling a trigger and they’re way over there. So, now these guys, there have been so many now that they know that that’s a very easy way for me to hurt a lot of people.

Zibby:  Right. I think that’s the connection I’m trying to make is I think people are going, “Oh, that works.” Same with this trend of someone driving a car into a big crowd of people, “Oh, that works.” That’s a way to maximize injury.

Donnie Jr:  Well, and as a society, we report on it because it’s news. The more we report on it, the more it’s in the forefront of people’s minds to do it. Even something like this podcast, it didn’t happen 20 years ago. We’re doing it now. Someone may listen to this and that may give them the idea to do something. It’s more in the media, it’s more present. It still takes that evil in that individual to make that decision. There’s going to be millions of listeners that listen to this and they find the value in it, listening to the victims and the detectives and the story. But there may be that one person that twists it, and based on those other things going on in their life, the failure, the wanting to hurt others. “Oh, okay, there’s a good idea.” And so that’s what we’re having. The more we have of these, the more we will continue to have.

Zibby:  That creates an instant dilemma in me. I’m like, “We’re not going to publish this.” But in all seriousness, with regards to the shooter, I don’t really give a shit about him. What I’m curious about is all of you human beings who were present for this event, which I feel like we can become increasingly numb to, because it’s everywhere, really, like unpacking it for a second and bringing it back down to its significant size, close up, because I don’t know how else to keep talking about it in a way that’s productive, but that isn’t doing more harm. I think that’s maybe why I asked the question is like, “Are we talking about it too much?” But I don’t hear people talking about it in this capacity necessarily.

Dan:  The main thing that I want to get out through this podcast is there are a lot of people out there who knew this shooter. And there were red flags that were presented. If you know a friend who is maybe on the fringe or maybe he’s not even your friend at all, you’re just aware of this person. And they are exhibiting some behaviors that are alarming. Please tell somebody, so we can stop this from happening. Let’s have some sort of intervention where this isn’t a possibility for that person anymore.

 Now, the other side of that is, if you see a boy or a girl in the cafeteria sitting off by themselves and they’re emotional or withdrawn and distraught, how about going over to that person, saying, “Hello,” introducing yourself. Maybe they need a friend. High school is a very difficult time. People go through a lot of things, probably at home also. So, introduce yourself. Be a good human being. Don’t ridicule and bully that person. That’s cowardly.

Yeardley:  Yeah. And we heard when we were talking earlier that, some of his friends actually knew about these bombs that he would put on the side of cattle. Hopefully, if you know somebody is trying to blow up animals or any other living creature or anything for that matter, you would actually go to an adult and say, “Hey, I just want you to know, because this seems not right to me.”

Dan:  Yeah. It’s been such a red flag over so many of the people we’ve even profiled on this podcast graduated from hurting and killing animals.

Zibby:  But it is interesting when you use these examples, because the school shooting trend, I feel like, has also created this heightened sense of fear about it happening in your own school. There’s a fine line between seeing somebody who is “A fucking weirdo” and deciding that they’re so weird that I should report them because maybe they’re going to be the next school shooter, and somebody who’s doing stuff that’s reportable. Because there’s also this tendency when there’s fear present to get really divisive. So, you look at the weird theater kid, I was one of them, which is why I can say that, with bright pink hair, who felt very much on the fringe. And adolescence is fraught with the worst. [giggles] Your hormones, you hate life, you hate yourself, a zit will throw you off, [Yeardley laughs] of course, for two weeks.

 And so, I do wonder too, and again, no one has the answer. But what that does to the atmosphere, like the school atmosphere and how we all look at each other. I’ve heard both sides of the coin, where on one hand, students are getting to know each other better on purpose to unite, so that there’s a sense of, “We can be different, but none of us are going to hurt each other.” And then there’s the other side of the coin, which is, “Oh, that guy looks weird. That guy is wearing a trench coat. That guy’s stuck in the 1990s.”

Dan:  I’m not picking those things out. Some of the red flags are a fascination with guns.

Zibby:  Right.

Dan:  Injuring animals, real signs of sociopathic behavior. People who can lie without feeling guilt about it, that’s a big red flag.

Zibby:  Yeah. Like, name some of these red flags.

Dan:  People who tinker with explosives and they’re making bombs with their friends. Columbine did that. Our shooter in this case did it. There are a lot of commonalities.

Donnie Jr:  Well, we’ve seen in diaries logs. They’ve done investigations on prior shootings. They have an obsession with, either murderers or mass murders. If you’ve got a 15-year-old kid, 16-year-old kid and his favorite topic is mass murderers, tell an adult. Let us shake this out and see what’s going on here. When I was 15 years or 16 years, my biggest thing was football and getting my driver’s license. It wasn’t mass murders. So, those continued red flags, those things that just don’t seem right. There’s even going to be things that evolve out of this.

 I wasn’t big on certain video games, but maybe even an obsession, not just playing with your friends, but an obsession with certain types. I know there’s some companies looking to release video games where you can act as an active shooter on school campus.

Yeardley:  [gasps]

Zibby:  No

Dan:  Yeah, it’s out there.

Donnie Jr:  You take some that are justified where it’s a military scene, a combat type game. Okay, it’s got some historical reference and value. I see no value in one that’s based on the campus of a school. But if that’s someone’s favorite video game, at least nowadays, I would tell someone.

Yeardley:  You guys have all said a lot of things for parents and students about what to look out for. Do you have anything that you’d like to say to someone who might be troubled or is struggling with feelings of violence?

Melissa:  Absolutely. Yeah, get help. Talk to somebody about it. If you don’t feel comfortable talking to your mom or your dad, talk to your uncle. Talk to the neighbor, if you trust them. Talk to somebody you can trust. Because someone will listen. They would rather help you than have to watch something happen, that’s terrible.

Dan:  And you got to remember that whatever horrible time that you’re having in your life right now, think a bigger picture. The timeline of your life, this is such a spec on that timeline.

Donnie Jr:  It’s true what they say in regards to. They will literally just lock you up and throw away the key. Nobody will ever care about you again. You are simply a number. You will be locked down for most of the hours of the day. You’ll eat what they tell you, you’ll sleep when they tell you, the activities they allow you to do, and that will be for the rest of your life. All because of the poor decisions you made now, which had you not made them, you could still make all the free choices for the rest of your life. It’s not a glorious life. You are literally just let around by someone else. You don’t get to make any decisions.

 And because of your act, you will inherently probably have to watch over your shoulder and try and keep yourself from being beaten or harmed while in custody for the rest of your life. So, the fear you put those others in, you will be living with that fear every single day that someone twice your size, twice as mean, will get a hold of you and do bad things to you.

Yeardley:  In prison.

Donnie Jr:  Yup. Because they don’t care.

Yeardley:  Right. None of us have anything to lose in there.

Donnie Jr:  Exactly.

Yeardley:  So, I don’t give a shit about you.

Donnie Jr:  Not at all.

Zibby:  Right. Once the event is over and the dust has settled and one is left alone in the dark with nothing but self and the decisions that led you there, that is a pretty powerful thought to consider. Thank you for that.

Yeardley:  Indeed. Melissa, thank you for agreeing to share your experience with us today. We certainly don’t take it lightly, and we are honored that you were so willing.

Melissa:  Of course.

‘

Yeardley:  And Officer Donnie, thank you so much for coming back for Part 2. It’s been great to have your insights as well.

Donnie Jr:  Thank you for having me.

Yeardley:  Small Town Dicks is produced by Zibby Allen and Yeardley Smith, and coproduced by Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby:  This episode was edited by Logan Heftel, Yeardley Smith and Zibby Allen.

Yeardley:  Music for the show was composed by John Forest. Our associate producer is Erin Gaynor, and our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell.

Zibby:  If you like what you hear and want to stay up to date with the show, head on over to smalltowndicks.com, and become our pal on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @smalltowndicks. We love hearing from our Small Town Fam. So, hit us up.

Yeardley:  Yeah. And also, we have a YouTube channel where you can see trailers for past and forthcoming episodes and we are part of Stitcher Premium now.

Zibby:  That’s right. If you choose to subscribe, you’ll be supporting our podcast. That way, we can keep going to small towns across the country and bringing you the finest in rare true crime cases, told, as always, by the detectives who investigated them. Thanks for listening, Small Town Fam.

Yeardley:  Nobody’s better than you.

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