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As you gather with friends and family this Thanksgiving season, we invite you to pull up a chair and join us for a very special episode in which we talk to the woman who raised detectives Dan and Dave, and find out what it’s like to be the mother of not one, but two cops.

Read Transcript

Yeardley: [00:00:00] Hi, this is Yeardley. We have a special episode for you this Thanksgiving holiday. We were originally going to post this on our Patreon channel, but after we all listened to it, we felt like the message of what it means to be a family was just what Thanksgiving is all about. And that made us want to share it with our entire Small Town Fam. So, please pull up a chair and join us for a special bonus episode of Small Town Dicks as we sit down with the usual suspects and their mom.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Yeardley: [00:00:41] Small Town Super Fam, here we are with another delicious piece of snackable content. We have a super-duper extra special episode today. We have Detective Dan and Detective Dave’s mom with us here. We’re calling her Mom. Just Mom.

Dan: [00:00:58] Well, that’s her name.

Yeardley: [00:01:00] That’s her name.

Dan: [00:01:01] That’s what I call her.

Yeardley: [00:01:02] It is what you call her. To tell us what it’s like to be the mom of two awesome detectives. Hi, Mom.

Mom: [00:01:10] Hi. Thank you for having me.

Yeardley: [00:01:11] We are so thrilled to have you. So, Mom, here’s the thing. I think our listeners would really love to know, you’re in a unique situation where you have both sons who are in law enforcement. And of course, the obvious question is, do you worry about them?

Mom: [00:01:32] All the time.

Yeardley: [00:01:34] And I’m sure they tell you not to worry.

Mom: [00:01:38] No, they don’t.

Yeardley: [00:01:39] Oh, they don’t?

[laughter]

Dave: [00:01:41] You don’t have to worry about Dan so much. He’s a civilian.

Dan: [00:01:44] Yeah, I’m retired.

Yeardley: [00:01:45] That’s right.

Dan: [00:01:46] She doesn’t worry about me anymore at all, now. Anytime, like, you see the fires on the news or if there’s an earthquake in Southern California because I live down there now, I know that I’m getting a text, “Are you okay?”

Yeardley: [00:01:59] Even if it’s nowhere near where you are.

Dan: [00:02:01] “Mom, I’m on fire.”

Dave: [00:02:03] [laughs]

Dan: [00:02:04] I can’t answer the phone right now. I’m on fire.”

Dave: [00:02:06] She sent that text message before where I wasn’t even working when something big happened, and I’m like, “I’m dead. I’m dead or I’m injured real bad.” [laughs]

Yeardley: [00:02:15] So, you’re incredibly insensitive.

Dave: [00:02:17] Exactly. I’m horrible, when it comes to that stuff because I understand where she’s coming from. Probably, I don’t understand where she’s coming from– [crosstalk]  

Yeardley: [00:02:25] No, you don’t.

Dave: [00:02:26] I don’t have any children, but that have found me.

Dan: [00:02:29] That have found you.

Dave: [00:02:30] So, I don’t understand, but I get it. I understand why she might worry.

Yeardley: [00:02:35] Does it annoy you?

Mom: [00:02:39] Everything I do annoys them.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:02:41] That’s not true. It’s odd. Anyone that I’m close to, friends or family that will reach out, there’s been a critical incident. I don’t operate where I worry about stuff like that. I don’t operate in this. I hope people are safe, because stuff’s all beyond my control. So, when people reach out and ask me those things, I’m just like, “Oh, of course I’m fine.” I’d tell you if I wasn’t. So, I make assumptions. I understand, probably frustrates the hell out of mom.

Mom: [00:03:15] Yeah, when the chief of police calls you to tell you that your son is in the hospital, that’s a very scary call.

Yeardley: [00:03:22] Sure.

Mom: [00:03:24] When he says, “He’ll be okay,” and I’m saying, “Which one?” And he goes, “Well–” He tells me what hospital they’re at and I go, “No, which child?” “Oh, that’s right. I’ve got two of your sons.” “Yes, you do.” That’s upsetting.

Dave: [00:03:40] By the time she got that call, I was feeling great. They had already given me the happy juice, so I was feeling great. [laughs]

Mom: [00:03:47] Oh. The first thing he said to me when I walked in the hospital room is, “No drama, mom. No drama.”

Dave: [00:03:53] Because the suspect that I was in a fight with that I got hurt fighting was like three doors down in the same ER.

Dan: [00:04:01] And that’s probably also why the Chief didn’t feel like he had to tell mom who was hurt, because the Chief knows that I’m not going to lose a fight.

Yeardley: [00:04:09] [laughs]

Dave: [00:04:10] This is going to devolve. Oh.

Yeardley: [00:04:13] It’s already devolved.

Dave: [00:04:13] Here we go.

Mom: [00:04:14] This is not good.

Yeardley: [00:04:15] Not good. [Mom laughs] Maybe this is a terrible idea. Dave, was this when you broke your leg?

Dave: [00:04:21] Yeah. Second day in uniform.

Yeardley: [00:04:23] Right.

Dave: [00:04:23] We’ve recounted that story.

Yeardley: [00:04:25] We have.

Dave: [00:04:26] Lots of surgeries. I’m a better man for it.

Yeardley: [00:04:30] [laughs]

Dan: [00:04:32] I will say this. Having your brother, when were detectives together, when we were doing search warrants, I knew he was next to me or behind me or watch my back when we were kicking in a door and going to grab somebody. I didn’t really worry about it, because he was there and it was just, I knew he had my back. Now that I’m not in law enforcement anymore that I’ve retired, now I worry about Dave. I do. And so, I get it.

Yeardley: [00:04:57] That’s the hardest part about being retired is that you don’t have eyes on your brother.

Dan: [00:05:02] It is really hard. Yes.

Yeardley: [00:05:05] How about for you, Dave?

Dave: [00:05:06] I got hired after Dan. So, certainly what prompted me to want to get into law enforcement was what he’s describing, that I wasn’t there with my brother. So, I did a few ride alongs with him, had a great time. Lights and sirens, the woo-woo lights, all that stuff. I was like, “I’m in the wrong line of work.” And not being there with Dan was one of the biggest drivers for me to get into law enforcement. And then, of course, he’s moved on. It’s different not having him here, but it’s not something that I consciously aware of everyday. He sends me messages just like mom does like, “How’s everything,” those kinds of things. Now mom does ride alongs with me.

Yeardley: [00:05:53] Right. [laughs]

Dave: [00:05:54] So, it’s different not having him around. It was nice to work with him because I knew what to expect.

Yeardley: [00:06:02] Right. You have a shorthand.

Dave: [00:06:03] Right. But I also have a family that I’m working with still, like, brothers and sisters in blue. So, just lost a big part of it is all when Dan moved on.

Yeardley: [00:06:12] Yeah.

Dave: [00:06:13] Yeah.

Mom: [00:06:14] I didn’t worry as much when Dan had his canine, when he got FTO, that eased some of it for Dan. Dave, however, will always be my baby.

Yeardley: [00:06:26] Because he’s younger? He’s six minutes younger?

Mom: [00:06:28] He’s six minutes younger.

Dan: [00:06:30] And he’s breakable.

Mom: [00:06:31] And he’s–

Yeardley: [00:06:33] Shut up, Dan.

[laughter]

Mom: [00:06:36] And he is the baby. Dan’s always been the big brother. When they were working together, it was a little easier when I’d get upset, when I go to bed at night and say my prayer. I’d think, “Nah, they’re together. They’ve had good training. They’ve been trained by the best.” I’ve been on ride alongs. I’ve seen the two of them work together. I got to witness a subject that they were chasing. I was on a ride along with Dave, and Dave came from the north, and Dan came from the south, and the suspect ran in between their cars, their headlights, and I said, “Did you guys plan that?” I didn’t hear him on the radio at all. And Dave told me on the way, he said, “Dan’s going to come the other way, no problem.” They just knew.

Yeardley: [00:07:21] They just had a sixth sense for each other.

Dave: [00:07:23] And I was playing chicken with Dan and hit that bastard.

[laughter]

Mom: [00:07:28] You did shut your lights off.

Dave: [00:07:30] Yeah. All that coordination happens over the radio, but you also, when I say that I knew what to expect from Dan, he’s a known commodity. I know how his brain works. I know how– If he was arriving to a call knowing that I’m coming from a certain area that he’s going to take this route. You get to know that about all of your coworkers. You see their tendencies. You see how tactical they are. So, it’s helpful when you’re working with people that you’ve worked with for years and you’re familiar with, because you already know how they’re going to approach a situation.

Dan: [00:08:00] Dave and I would talk about it when we’d have somebody run from us or there’d be a pursuit, and you hear people get on the radio and say, “Where do you want me?” “Well, shit, dude, how long you been doing this?” [Dave laughs] I’m giving out pretty precise locations of where we’re at and our direction to travel. Think like a bad guy, you should know where to go. That was something that Dave and Detective George and Detective Kyle and Detective Justin, I never had to worry about those things with those guys because they get it. It’s incumbent on guys who have been around.

[00:08:36] Dave’s a sergeant now and a watch commander to prompt that thought to get guys to change their thinking a little bit, because I think some people aren’t aware of it until you point it out to them. That was a rewarding thing for me is having a few years on the road. I’ve made a ton of mistakes as a patrol officer, but I learned from them. And I listened to the older guys, and that’s what we want guys to do is listen to the experienced officers and don’t ask that question again, because I want to bonk you on the head.

Dave: [00:09:05] We’ve had chases– My shift, I work graveyard. So, you can imagine the guys with not a lot of seniority get stuck on the least desirable shift, which is working graveyard hours. So, I get a lot of young guys. The great thing about them is they’re willing to learn, they understand they don’t know everything, and they’ve got a motor. You have to pull back on the reins like, “Slow down, guys.” Because they are eager to work, and want to do good things, and they enjoy the job, so the job is fresh for them. But I noticed that we would have these vehicle chases, and then the guy would bail out of the car, and they’d say, “And he’s running westbound. He’s hopping fences.” I just saw this pattern of all the police cars would pile in behind the end of the pursuit and I’m like, “Well, you’re going to the place we know he’s not.”

[laughter]

Dave: [00:09:59] “Spread out. Let’s go. Come on. He’s going westbound. I would drive west.” So, just breaking that of them– It just comes with experience. I made the same mistakes when I was new, and I didn’t think that way. I’d want to go to where the action is, even though the action is now going to be way out in front of that car, everyone piles in right behind it in a second.

Yeardley: [00:10:20] Rats.

Dave: [00:10:21] “Come on, guys.”

[laughter]

Dave: [00:10:23] “We’re better than this.” So, it’s a learning process for me as a sergeant, for me as a patrol officer, as a detective, and certainly, for mom, as parents and siblings of police officers, you got to learn too, right?

Mom: [00:10:38] That’s true. That’s true. But I’ve been fortunate enough, Yeardley, that Dan and Dave have allowed me to go on ride alongs with them.

Yeardley: [00:10:47] What has that taught you? Has it given you a level of comfort, because now you see how they work?

Mom: [00:10:53] The professionalism.

Yeardley: [00:10:54] Right.

Mom: [00:10:55] Yeah. I had an experience with them that I was with Dan, and they needed to call Dave when David was a detective and Dan wasn’t yet, and a baby had died. That night is when I realized that my sons had grown up that they were men. It was really emotional for me. I watched the two of them interact when no one was around, and I was standing back, and they were discussing the pictures, and they were waiting to get okay to go inside the apartment. I was watching them. I was about 5ft away from them, and I was listening to them interact, and I was like, “Wow, these boys are men. They’re not my babies anymore. They’re grown men. They’re making decisions for other people’s lives,” and that was an eye opener for me. It made me really, really grateful that they chose this profession and that they were doing something that they loved and they were helping people. So, it makes me really proud.

[00:11:59] Anybody that knows me knows that my main focus in life is Dan and Dave, and I’m so proud of everything that they choose to do that it’s made it a little bit easier. It’s made it a little easier. I think I worry a little bit more about Dave now than I did before.

Yeardley: [00:12:21] Because Dan isn’t there to watch his back?

Mom: [00:12:23] Because Dan’s not there, and because–

Yeardley: [00:12:26] Because he’s out on patrol again.

Mom: [00:12:28] Well, the attitude, Yeardley. Come on.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:12:32] I’m just waiting for Dan to keep chiming on how brittle my bones are or something.

Dan: [00:12:36] Drink some milk, man.

Dave: [00:12:37] I’m broken a bone since then, man.

Dan: [00:12:39] Jeez. Let it go.

Dave: [00:12:40] Beating a dead horse.

Yeardley: [00:12:41] Can we just let Mom finish her thought here?

Dan: [00:12:43] Yeah, sorry. [Mom laughs]

Yeardley: [00:12:44] Gee whiz. Why do you worry more about Dave now?

Mom: [00:12:48] I worry about him now because he has people below him that he has to worry about. He has to stay on top of things for them, for their safety. And they all have families.

Yeardley: [00:13:03] Because they have less experience, do you worry about the liability for him, or do you worry that, for instance, that they might make mistakes, and then Dave could be, he’s more in the line of fire? What is the worry?

Mom: [00:13:18] I worry that, if somebody made a mistake or something happened to someone that Dave was working with or was close by, how he would handle things emotionally, mentally, after the fact. I know he could handle everything at the time that it was happening. It’s afterwards how he would handle that.

Yeardley: [00:13:39] Because he takes things so hard.

Mom: [00:13:41] And he loves people so hard.

Yeardley: [00:13:43] Yes.

Mom: [00:13:43] Yeah. He cares about people a lot.

Yeardley: [00:13:46] Right.

Mom: [00:13:46] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:13:47] So, if something happened to one of his people, he would feel responsible.

Mom: [00:13:50] Oh, definitely. There’s no doubt in my mind.

Yeardley: [00:13:54] Dave?

Dave: [00:13:56] I care about the people I work with. We’re blessed. We’ve got a great police department, from top to bottom, we’ve got great people. So, certainly, on my shift, the people I work with, they’re wonderful. I care about all of them. They’re family to me. If something happened to them, I’m sure I would feel bad. But this is the stuff I don’t really think about is that you just go out and work.

Yeardley: [00:14:22] Until it’s in front of you.

Dave: [00:14:23] Until it’s in front of you and then you’re like, “Oh, I got to deal with that.” But like I said, I don’t operate in the land of worry, because I take that as it comes. So, I certainly consider things that might happen, but I don’t dwell on them, because in this job, the minute your mind gets sidetracked on what’s not the immediate task at hand, you get complacent, and you make bad decisions, and you overlook things that you normally wouldn’t have overlooked.

[00:14:53] So, in talking with family and friends, especially, who have been on ride alongs, I’ve gotten feedback that you didn’t really interact with me or you’re not paying attention to our conversation, it’s because I’ve got an earpiece in and I’m hearing things on the radio that you would be hearing if you would be quiet. [chuckles]

Yeardley: [00:15:12] [laughs]

Dave: [00:15:13] I’m having to pay attention to that. At the same time, people don’t realize that police officers, when they’re in a marked patrol unit, we’re targets now. And you’re always scanning. You’re always looking at things. Beyond that, I’m also looking for criminal activity. So, even when I’m driving my own personal vehicle, as I go down large thoroughfares, I’m checking side streets all the time. My head is on a swivel. I’m looking at cars coming the other way. I look at license plates, and grab license plates that are coming past. It’s just habit. You’re looking at faces of drivers. You’re looking at how many occupants are in that car.

[00:15:52] When you come up to a stoplight, you are gauging how far you need to park behind that car, because if somebody comes up behind you and tries to pin you in, you need space to go forward to get around that car. That’s not something I ever learned until Dan became a police officer and he pointed it out. He’s like, “Why are you so close to that car?” I’m like, “Well, we’re in line.” He’s like, “Well, what happens if somebody tried to pin you in right now?” I’m like, “Hadn’t thought about that.” “Well, when you become a police officer, make sure you don’t make that mistake.” “Got it.” So, when I have people on ride alongs, a lot of times somebody will say, “Well, how was your ride along?” “I don’t know. We hardly even interacted.”

Yeardley: [00:16:34] Well, you’re on the job. I mean, it’s not a social call.

Dave: [00:16:37] It’s not a social call. And my safety is on the line.

Yeardley: [00:16:40] Right.

Dave: [00:16:41] I have to be vigilant. I’m probably not going to pay as much attention to our conversation or be as talkative because I’ve got a computer, I’ve got a lot of stuff going on in my ear, and I just don’t have that capacity to give riders the attention that they might expect from their good buddy that they’ve known since high school. “Sorry, I’m in a different capacity right now. You’re not going to get me at 100%, because my 100% is on other things.”

Yeardley: [00:17:08] Well, sure, it’s on your job.

Dave: [00:17:11]

Yeardley: [00:17:11] That seems reasonable.

Dave: [00:17:12] Yeah. So, there’s sometimes where I feel on ride alongs– Like, when mom comes on ride alongs, it’s great, I get to spend time with her, but I don’t know that I would characterize it as quality time where we had this great conversation. It’s nice to have her there, because I like having family in the car with me, and I know it helps her feel better because we’re spending time together, but we’re not having like in-depth conversations. I’m in business mode. She recognizes that.

Mom: [00:17:40] Hey, I’m good with that. I really thoroughly enjoy watching them work. It makes me so proud that the two of them were just– I didn’t realize they were so smart.

Yeardley: [00:17:51] [laughs]

Dave: [00:17:53] That’s a charade. That’s a charade.

[laughter]

Dan: [00:17:56] Speaking of ride alongs, when I first started as a cop and I was a patrol guy and people would ride with me, I felt like I had to entertain them. I had to go out and I had to constantly I had to find something big for them. It took me a while to get to a point where I’ve got a lot of other stuff that I got to do. And just because you’re riding with me, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to ignore those things. So, writing reports. And people say, “Dude, come on, wrap it up. Let’s go out and find something.” I don’t want to be here working five hours of overtime to get my reports done. These have to be done now. Like, “I’m sorry, man, but this is the way it’s going to be.” It’s not always your friends that are riding with you or your family. Sometimes, you get assigned riders, a civilian, and they’re like, “Well, are you just going to write reports all night?” I’m just like, “I have to get this done. This is part of my job.”

Yeardley: [00:18:46] It’s my job.

Dan: [00:18:47] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:18:47] You’re here as a guest.

Dan: [00:18:49] “I got stuff to do.” I think people lose sight of that sometimes. I’ve had other riders that I kicked out of my car before. One lady, she kept wanting me to stop people who were minorities.

Yeardley: [00:19:01] Oh.

Dan: [00:19:02] And I was like, “Why?” Like, “Why? Are you seeing something that I’m not seeing?” She’s like, “Well, he’s a Mexican.” I’m like, “All right, you’re done. We are done.” “Are you kidding me right now?”

Yeardley: [00:19:13] Out you go.

Dan: [00:19:13] Yeah. And she’s like, “He just looks like a criminal.” “Oh, my God, please shut up.” Like, “I’m driving you straight back to the stage. You’re never going to ride here again. Ever.” It’s ridiculous. People think that because they are on a ride along that they get to basically dictate what you’re going to do that night.

Dave: [00:19:31] Well, and they got their little taste of power. They’re in the police car and “Yeah, let’s go jam some people up.” Dan’s right. Every time I have a rider, I feel the need to find something to entertain them.

Mom: [00:19:44] I want to go fast.

Yeardley: [00:19:46] [laughs]

Mom: [00:19:47] Really fast.

Dan: [00:19:48] She always says that too.

Mom: [00:19:49] I want to go as fast as we can.

Dan: “Are we going to go fast tonight? Can we go fast on this call?”

Dave: [00:19:52] As a patrol officer, I was really active. As a sergeant, if I’m out there digging up stuff, then I’m going to be preoccupied with that. I’m digging up stuff that I can’t deal with because I’m supposed to be supervising, and I have to approve reports, and I have administrative duties. I can’t be out there stopping every car and chasing taillights all night. I can’t be out contacting people on bikes. I’m still out on patrol, but you got to put your blinders on a little bit. It’s just more selective. And so, there’s this thing called the rider’s curse. I think we discussed it when you were on the ride along, Yeardley.

Yeardley: [00:20:29] Yeah. [giggles]

Mom: [00:20:30] Were you the curse?

Yeardley: [00:20:31] I was a little bit of the curse.

Dave: [00:20:33] The rider’s curse.

Yeardley: [00:20:34] Actually, we did a bunch of stuff, but apparently, the night before had been just madness. But we did some really interesting stuff. But compared to other nights, it was not that big a deal. I was satisfied.

Dave: [00:20:47] Yeah. The rider’s curse is where you want something to happen, and it’s the slowest, most boring night in police history.

Yeardley: [00:20:54] I wouldn’t characterize it that way at all, but we got to go fast. We get 105 miles an hour at least twice. That was terrifying to me.

Mom: [00:21:03] Oh, I love it. I got to do 120, I think.

Yeardley: [00:21:06] What?

Dan: [00:21:07] I don’t know who you’re talking about. I never went that fast. I don’t even think my car would go that fast.

Mom: [00:21:11] I think it was pretty close. Well, maybe the person that you were chasing was doing 120 and we were trying to catch up.

Dan: [00:21:17] Yeah. I don’t have a flux capacitor in my car.

Mom: [00:21:21] Does that cover you a little bit. [Yeardley laughs] I got your six.

Dan: [00:21:25] I don’t recall that.

Yeardley: [00:21:26] I got your six.

[laughter]

Yeardley: [00:21:29] So, I know that you guys, sometimes, you are like, “Yes, mom, I’m fine.” So, do you try not to text them if you see that there’s been a shooting or a fire or a thing? Do you try to contain your worry or do you just like, “I’m your mother, I’m texting you.”

Mom: [00:21:51] Yeardley, I try at first. Now, the first big one that I got was when an officer was killed. I was working late that night, and I worked at a town about 30 miles, 35 miles from here, and I was living north of where we are. One of my employees called me and said, “There’s been a shooting and there’s an officer down in the town that you’re from.” I said, “What?” I’m getting goosebumps just thinking about it. And she said, “My husband’s okay.” Her husband was an officer in the same. And I said, “Okay.” And she said, “I’m not sure about Dan and Dave.” And I said, “Um. Okay.” So, I just hung up the phone. I said, “Thanks for letting me know.”

[00:22:43] I hung up the phone, and I sat there for a minute, and I thought, “Okay, somebody would have called me.” And then I said, “Bullshit.” And I called the non-emergency number, and I said, “I know you’re busy, I know this is crazy,” but I told her who I was, and I said, I have to know, “Are my sons okay?”

Yeardley: [00:23:03] You called the non-emergency number of the police department?

Mom: [00:23:06] Yes. And I said, “I have to know. Are my sons okay?” And she said, “They’re okay. They are involved, but they’re both okay at this point.” I said, “Okay, I’ll let you go.” So, I called a really good friend of mine that works in the same town. And I said, “I need your help.” She said, “What?” And I said, “I need you to meet me.” I told her what was going on and I said, “Meet me down there. I’ve got to be close in case they need me.” And so, we sat at a local restaurant for several hours just down the street from the police department in case I needed. And then little later, I got a text from Dan that said, “I’m okay. Dave’s okay. I’m going home.” I’m like, “That’s not enough. I got to know. I got to know what’s going on.”

[00:23:59] So, I went and parked across the street from the police department and just sat there, and I saw Dave talking to someone through a window. I was sitting in my car.

Yeardley: [00:24:10] Were you by yourself?

Mom: [00:24:11] No. My friend was with me.

Yeardley: [00:24:12] Okay.

Mom: [00:24:13] Her name’s Kelsey. She was with me. She and I sat there, and she held my hand all night. I think we were out till 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock in the morning, just sitting out here, making sure that things were okay. I didn’t know if Dan was going to come back. I did drive by his place wants to make sure that he was okay. Didn’t talk to him, but I just had to make sure that he’s okay. I could see Dave, so I knew that he was okay, but I knew they were both really upset. So, that was a tough one for me. That was really tough. That was a long drive, getting down here. That 30 miles that was rough.

Dave: [00:24:52] When you hear of things like this officer that was murdered, people aren’t as self-aware anymore, especially to families of police officers. Stuff hits social media, and people start making comments. Even hearing Mom tell the story about that, I recognized some failures on my part that day that I wasn’t considering all the people that might be worried about me and the limited info that they would have about this situation. I knew I was fine. I was chasing-

Yeardley: [00:25:29] Bad guy.

Dave: [00:25:29] -bad woman.

Yeardley: [00:25:30] Bad woman.

Dave: [00:25:30] Yeah. So, I think that I didn’t have the self-awareness where you reach out to your family and they understand like, I should have been proactive about that. For a few hours, we were dealing with a situation. But on the way back in, I could have navigated that night much more effectively for my family. Just hearing it now, now I recognize. God forbid, there’s something like that to happen again, I’m going to be a little bit more proactive about giving my family a heads up about what’s going on.

Mom: [00:26:03] I’ve never said anything to Dan and Dave about that. I don’t think they knew I was out there.

Dave: [00:26:08] No.

Dan: [00:26:10] It was the worst day of my life, that day. When it was all over with, I’d been standing next to Dave for most of it, most of the end of it. And maybe one day we’ll talk about this case, but it has to involve one other person. But at the end of that day, we were way up in the woods. I didn’t have any cell phone coverage. I remember right when I broke that threshold where I had service again, my phone lit up like a Christmas tree. I had messages from like 30 people. “Are you okay?”

[00:26:46] Here’s the problem with that. If I don’t answer, you’re going to assume that I’m not okay, but simply from where we were and what we were doing, I couldn’t answer those texts. It probably ruined a lot of people’s days that we weren’t able to communicate with them. It’s just that the nature of this job is you can’t always reach out and you can’t call time out. There aren’t any time outs.

Dave: [00:27:10] You have these situations where the relationships I’ve been in, where you get a text message from your spouse or partner, and the officer doesn’t respond. Because I might be in the ER, where it’s frowned upon to use cell phone devices while you’re among all these sick and injured people, and I’m dealing with a stabbing victim who I’m trying to get a statement from. She might not hear from me for hours. I might not respond to your text message. I might not respond to your text message, because it’s been a bad day, and I just got off a call with horrible circumstances involving a kid, and I don’t want to talk to anybody. I just want to be with myself. And my friends now, they understand like, I might not hear from them today like, “Why does it take you so long to return text, Dude?” “I got a job, man.”

Yeardley: [00:27:57] Right.

Dave: [00:27:58] “Sorry.”

Yeardley: [00:27:59] And a unique job that nobody else gets. You’ve always said, if you don’t do this job, you don’t really understand what this job takes and what it takes out of you.

Dave: [00:28:09] Yeah.

Dan: [00:28:11] It takes huge bites out of you sometimes, for sure. Obviously, it’s tough on family. Just thinking about this day, it’s the biggest day in my career was that day, and I never thought of, I hope my mom’s okay. I never thought about that, but now hearing it, oops. Sorry, Mom. [Dave chuckles]

Mom: [00:28:32] No, not at all. I knew they had a job to do. I was doing a whole lot of praying, and I knew that I was going to be close if I got that call that, “Mom, I need to talk.” “I’m right here. I’m in the parking lot.” I figured that’s what I needed to do. I was for selfish reasons, I wanted to be there because I wanted to be there.

Yeardley: [00:28:58] How come you didn’t get out of the car once you saw Dave across the street?

Mom: [00:29:03] Because they were working. They were working, and he was talking with someone. I knew that it was none of my business. I knew that they would get in contact with me. I don’t think I called Dan. If I did, I left a message and just said, “Let me know you’re okay.” But I don’t remember calling either one of them until much later.

Dan: [00:29:28] The problem with that day was the last thing that I wanted to do was answer every text and relive that moment 30 times. I didn’t want to relive it at all, so I totally shut down. Completely shut down. It was a failure on my part. I made really horrible choices after this. For a month, every night when I would get home from work, I would drink. The reason why I drank is because I was having flashbacks to that moment of working on this officer, and I could feel it in my hands. My hands would shake and dealing with a lot of stuff that I wasn’t prepared to deal with. My answer for that was, open a bottle of whiskey, and drink, until you pass out, so you can actually sleep because I couldn’t sleep. I would try to sleep, but I couldn’t. I was circling the drain.

Yeardley: [00:30:30] Can you just explain briefly what you mean when you say you could feel it in your hands?

Dan: [00:30:36] I did CPR on this officer, and I can– If I think about it today, I can feel it in my hands what that sensation is like. And it’s not pleasant. Obviously, I get emotional talking about it. This is the effect that this situation had on me. I got an F minus in dealing with it. I think the hardest part for me was knowing that I can’t deal with what I’m dealing with emotionally, and there’s a widow out there who, her whole world just got destroyed. It’s horrible. I want other officers who are out there, other people who’ve been involved in a situation like this, like, before it gets worse, please ask for help. Swallow your pride. Don’t make the same mistakes that I did, where you think that the answers you’re looking for are at the bottom of a bottle of whiskey, because they are not. It’s quite the opposite.

[00:31:41] I had to really work my ass off to try to regain the trust of people that I worked with. Alcohol was killing me. I needed help and I didn’t know how to ask for it. I wasn’t suicidal, but I was drowning myself in alcohol. That’s hard for me to admit because I feel like I’m stronger than that, but I embarrassed my police department. I embarrassed my profession. I embarrassed my brother. I embarrassed my family. I embarrassed myself. I didn’t stop. I didn’t stop until there was an intervention. It saved my life. It really did. It’s really hard to admit. Dave tried to save me, and I fucking couldn’t get out of my own way. I shut myself down from my family, and I paid a really heavy price for doing that.

[00:32:37] If there are other officers out there that are listening to this or a family member, stay with them. You got to stay with them. I was so stubborn that I just couldn’t get out of my own way.

Yeardley: [00:32:50] But it’s not a culture. Your profession doesn’t foster a culture that says, “It’s okay to reach out for help.” They offer it, but it’s not encouraged. You’ve often said it.

Dan: [00:33:02] I remember they asked me, “How you doing?” And I said, “I’m not doing well.” And they said, “Have you gotten any sleep?” And I said, “I’ve gotten about two hours in the last three days.” And they said, “Are you going to be okay to work tomorrow?” I’m like–

Dave: [00:33:18] It’s that “suck it up, buttercup” kind of mentality. Our department nowadays would handle it differently.

Dan: [00:33:24] I’m not trying to throw my department under the bus, but part of the reason why is this hadn’t happened around here for 30 years or 40 years, so nobody knew how to proceed.

Yeardley: [00:33:36] What hadn’t happened?

Dan: An officer being murdered. It hadn’t happened in decades, and so nobody knew what to do. People say, “I understand how you’re feeling.” You don’t have a clue of how I’m feeling. You have no fucking clue. Don’t tell me that. It’s insulting to me. Dave knew how I felt, because Dave was with me. And there was another officer who was my coach, and she knew how I felt, because we were together working on this hero, this father that lost his life. Like I said, I don’t want to throw my department under the bus. They just didn’t know what to do.

Dave: [00:34:20] We were back at work the next day. Nowadays, you might get a day or two off to decompress and gather yourself. And here’s the thing. Shitty things happen in this job and it’s what, I hate to say, we signed up for it, but if I didn’t want to be responding to emergencies and dealing with people in horrible crisis and traumatic incidents, I would have gotten a job as an accountant. I would have continued a job as a management consultant. So, you got to deal with this stuff.

[00:34:50] Certainly, when you have an incident that’s as impactful as this one, you got to be smart about how you reintroduce yourself back into your workday. And like Dan said, we had never dealt with this around here. So, it was just like, “Oh, that’s what we do. Back to work. Let’s go.” When you’re dealing with that kind of circumstance, we’re not like a huge metropolitan area, like Houston or Dallas or New York or one of those big cities where officers unfortunately get shot and/or killed on a much more frequent basis than they do in our state.

[00:35:30] So, we’re not prepared, we’re not set up for the tail of those incidents. You don’t know how to deal with the wake of everything that happens after that. We had like debriefs, but those were days and weeks after this event rather than fresh, “Hey, let’s get these guys and make sure they’re squared away. I know they just dealt with something nobody’s ever dealt with around here.” It’s just different. So, police departments, we don’t deal with these stressful incidents like other people would deal with them.

Yeardley: [00:36:04] That’s why you do what you do and the rest of us don’t.

Dave: [00:36:07] Right. I might have two more in this shift,- [chuckles]

Yeardley: [00:36:10] Yes.

Dave: [00:36:11] -you know? I think about some of the times where we go out to a call and you recognize “this is one I’ll never forget.” Horrible incident. And you clear that call when you’re done, and the next call you go to is a dispute because somebody took a kid’s Xbox away. You go from this horrible incident where our lives are changed forever, and you go to this stupid dispute where it’s like, “Really? Now I got to go referee your life after I just dealt with this shit?” But they don’t know that.

Yeardley: [00:36:43] Sure.

Dan: [00:36:44] I left a child co-sleeping, dead baby call one time. Right after clearing that call, my dispatcher sends me to a family dispute. I went to this house. I was pissed off that I immediately got dispatched to another call because of what I just dealt with five minutes ago. I get to this family dispute, and they are arguing over who gets to use the Xbox.

Yeardley: [00:37:12] Why are you there?

Dan: [00:37:14] They called the police. They wanted me to come referee their dispute about who gets to use the Xbox next.

Yeardley: [00:37:21] But doesn’t dispatch go, “We don’t do that?”

Dan: [00:37:23] Well, it was escalating, and they were yelling and screaming. So, dispatch says, “Oh, this could get worse.” So, they send me to it, and I’m like, “Are you fucking kidding me? You guys are arguing about who gets to use the Xbox? Oh, my God.”

Dave: [00:37:39] This is where you see where cops are like, “Oh.” The dysfunction we get to see and witness and deal with, it makes you appreciate the way you were raised. We didn’t deal with that. You get five tokens a year to use at your discretion for police services.

Yeardley: [00:37:54] That’s a lot of tokens, by the way.

Dave: [00:37:55] Some people would go through 50 tokens.

Mom: [00:37:58] Well, there was a couple of times that–

Yeardley: [00:38:00] You wanted to. [laughs]

Mom: [00:38:02] It could have happened.

Yeardley: [00:38:03] But you didn’t. You didn’t, Mom.

Mom: [00:38:05] When they were fighting, there was a couple of times. Yeah.

[laughter]

Yeardley: [00:38:11] What did you think that they would grow up to be?

Mom: [00:38:16] I thought Dan and Dave would be professional baseball players.

Dan: [00:38:22] Guilty.

Mom: [00:38:23] Definitely thought they would both play pro ball. When Dave got hurt–

Yeardley: [00:38:28] What happened to you?

Dave: [00:38:29] I tore my rotator cuff. Without the rotator cuff tear, I would not have played pro baseball.

Yeardley: [00:38:35] I don’t know. I heard you were really good. You are a pitcher.

Dan: [00:38:37] He would have.

Yeardley: [00:38:38] He was a left-handed pitcher, listeners.

Dave: [00:38:40] I’m humble about that.

Yeardley: [00:38:42] He was damn fucking good. That’s the story on the street.

Mom: [00:38:45] That’s the story. Yeah.

Dan: [00:38:47] Filthy. Just nasty stuff and humble.

[laughter]

Mom: [00:38:53] No, I really thought our life would be baseball forever. Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:38:58] Really?

Mom: [00:38:58] Yeah.

Dave: [00:38:59] You didn’t think I was going to be like a bodybuilder?

Yeardley: [00:39:03] She’s looking at him like, “Who are you talking to?” [laughs]

Dave: [00:39:05] Like a model or something?  

Mom: [00:39:07] Now, I was a little surprised when Dave left his job in DC.

Yeardley: [00:39:13] Why? Because it was such a good job?

Mom: [00:39:16] Yeah. When he was working back east, I thought he was going to stay back there. In fact, I think I even told him at one time, “You better not marry anybody from back there. And if you do, you better make sure she’s planning on moving out here.”

Yeardley: [00:39:28] Why? Because you wanted him close to you?

Mom: [00:39:30] Yeah, I didn’t want him clear across the country.

Yeardley: [00:39:33] Sure.

Mom: [00:39:33] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:39:34] And didn’t you have top secret clearance and stuff over there?

Dave: [00:39:37] No, I worked on some projects where you had to have not top-secret clearance, but a secret clearance. That wasn’t the majority of my work. The jobs I worked were with the Department of Defense and transportation agencies, and a certain aeronautical and space administration.

Yeardley: [00:39:52] NASA?

Dave: [00:39:53] Maybe.

Yeardley: [00:39:54] Oh. [laughs]

Dave: [00:39:56] But they weren’t like top secret projects. There’s certainly information that I was made aware of that other people don’t know about, but I wasn’t one of those like super-secret consultants.

Yeardley: [00:40:07] Aliens?

Dave: [00:40:09] Have no idea.

Yeardley: [00:40:11] Hmm. [unintelligible [00:40:11].

Dave: [00:40:12] Right. Fun job for a while, and then I went on right along, and I was like, “Jesus, my job is so boring.” I just go to meetings to have meetings to justify budgets that are going up every year, because we had this meeting.

Yeardley: [00:40:29] Right. [laughs]

Mom: [00:40:31] But you had a nice view.

Dave: [00:40:33] I did. I had some great projects.

Mom: [00:40:35] Yeah.

Dave: [00:40:35] San Francisco. Worked out of San Francisco in the financial district in a tall building. Love that city. I’ve had a pretty great life, and it’s set up by the situation I grew up in.

Yeardley: [00:40:49] Right.

Dave: [00:40:51] Good parents that taught us the difference between right and wrong and gave us opportunities that people that I grew up with or people I went to school with didn’t have. I’m grateful. I know that I’ve had a blessed life. I don’t take that for granted at all.

Mom: [00:41:09] Thanks, Dave.

Dan: [00:41:12] Yeah, Dawg. [chuckles]

Yeardley: [00:41:15] Is there anything that you want to say to your mom or anything you want to ask her?

Dave: [00:41:23] I got something. How can I do better, communication wise? In a perfect world, what do you get from me? Like, if something bad happens, you want to hear from me as soon as possible, even if it’s in a different agency? I’m asking what’s your ask?

Yeardley: [00:41:40] What’s the dream?

Dave: [00:41:41] Yeah.

Mom: [00:41:42] I want to spend more time with you.

Dave: [00:41:44] Oh, all right.

Yeardley: [00:41:46] [laughs]

Mom: [00:41:48] Sorry, Dave.

[laughter]

Mom: [00:41:50] I want more time.

Dave: [00:41:52] All right.

Yeardley: [00:41:53] Sweet.

Dan: [00:41:54] I think what I would say to her is, doing this job, you come to appreciate the way you were raised with accountability and consequences and structure in your life. My mom and my dad divorced when we were five years old or six years old. And the thing that I really admire about my mom and my dad is they didn’t argue in front of us. Even though they would have disagreements, they wouldn’t argue in front of us because they were more concerned about our welfare and they didn’t want us seeing them have arguments. It was important to them. They were supportive of us. They are friendly to each other. They’re not mean. They don’t say negative things about the other in front of Dave and I. And that’s something that we encounter quite a bit in this job. I think it takes quite a strong person to raise their child that way, and I really respect that. And that’s what I really respect about my parents.

Mom: [00:42:55] I don’t believe that I’ve ever said anything negative about your father ever even going through the divorce and the separation. Never.

Dave: [00:43:04] My dad’s married to, who’s been our stepmom for– Jeez, not going to give my age away, but over 35 years and she was the same way. There wasn’t any drama growing up. My mom got along with my stepmom and my dad. It was always civil. It was always stable. There was not chaos. There wasn’t drama. There wasn’t backstabbing. The big picture was, let’s raise good kids with values who are considerate, respectful, and humble. Dan’s not humble, but the rest of us. [Yeardley laughs] We fared pretty well.

[00:43:43] I talk about opportunities. We had every opportunity to be successful set up by good parenting, who kept a big picture in mind. Never saw fighting, yelling, screaming, that kind of stuff. Didn’t grow up with it. Now I see it multiple times a night and I always scratch my head. I’m like, “I just don’t get it.”

Yeardley: [00:44:03] Sure. What is that? A native?

Dave: [00:44:05] Right.

Yeardley: [00:44:06] It’s amazing. That stability, that work ethic, that integrity is so evident in the way you both conduct yourselves. It’s impressive.

Dan: [00:44:16] Thank you.

Yeardley: [00:44:17] It’s lovely.

Dan: [00:44:18] I owe it all to this woman and my father and my stepmother. Dave and I are very, very lucky.

Mom: [00:44:23] Thank you. That’s sweet. As Dan and Dave’s mother, you know I’m really proud of them, Yeardley.

Yeardley: [00:44:29] Yes. Well, this is fantastic. I love this conversation. Mom, we love you. We hope you’ll come back.

Mom: [00:44:36] I love you so much, all three of you and I just– [crosstalk]

Dave: [00:44:39] What about Gary and Logan?

Mom: [00:44:41] Well, [Yeardley laughs] I really love you, guys. We’ll see each other soon, I’m sure.

Dave: [00:44:47] There you go.

Yeardley: [00:44:48] Amazing. Small Town Super Fam, come on, this was a meal on Patreon. This is a fantastic five course meal. Snackable content.

Mom: [00:44:58] Thank you.

Yeardley: [00:44:59] Thank you.

Dan: [00:45:00] I know Dave will eat it.

Dave: [00:45:01] Motherfu–

[theme music]

Dan: [00:45:05] Dave, I love you. Stay safe out there. Mom, I love you.

Mom: [00:45:09] I love you too, Dan.

Dave: [00:45:11] This was surprisingly enjoyable. I thought were going to get into embarrassing photos as kids and all that stuff. I’m glad we avoided that.

Mom: [00:45:19] Well, you didn’t tell me ahead of time or I would have.

Dave: [00:45:23] It’s all verbal. It would have been useless to bring photos. [Mom laughs]

Yeardley: [00:45:26] It would have. Thanks for that. That was a lovely, backhanded compliment. Surprisingly enjoyable. Okay. Thank you so much. This is absolute joy.

Mom: [00:45:38] Thanks for having me.

Yeardley: [00:45:40] Thank you. Well, there you have it, Small Town Fam. Thank you for listening to this very special episode of Small Town Dicks. This is a friendly reminder that we’ll be off for Thanksgiving. Our next episode will drop on December the 6th. So, for now, from our Small Town family to yours, we wish you the very best, the warmest, most wonderful, tasty Thanksgiving Day. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you next time.

[theme music]

Yeardley: [00:46:22] Small Town Dicks is produced by Gary Scott and Yeardley Smith, and coproduced by Detectives Dan and Dave. This episode was edited by Logan Heftel, Gary Scott, and me, Yeardley Smith. Our associate producers are Erin Gaynor and the Real Nick Smitty. Our music is composed by John Forest. Our editors extraordinaire are Logan Heftel and Soren Begin, and our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell.

Dan: [00:46:50] If you like what you hear and want to stay up to date with the show, visit us on our website at smalltowndicks.com. And join the Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at @smalltowndicks. We love hearing from you.

Dave: [00:47:05] And if you support us on Patreon, your subscription will give you access to exclusive content and merchandise that isn’t available anywhere else. Go to patreon.com/smalltowndickspodcast.

Yeardley: [00:47:17] That’s right. Your subscription also makes it possible for us to keep going to small towns across the country-

Dan: [00:47:23] -in search of the finest-

Dave: [00:47:25] -rare-

Dan: [00:47:25] -true crime cases told-

Dave: [00:47:27] -as always, by the detectives who investigated them. So, thanks for listening, Small Town Fam.

Yeardley: [00:47:32] Nobody’s better than you.

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