Paul: Hey, Small Town Fam, this is Paul Holes. Make sure you subscribe to The Briefing Room with Detectives Dan and Dave. Season 2 is out now, subscribe now and thanks.

Dave: [00:00:17] So, walk me through what happened today. Did she ever tell you what her age was?

Nathan: [00:00:23] I think so and it’s probably why I’ve questioned it.

Dave: [00:00:27] How old?

Nathan: [00:00:28] I think she said 15 or 16.

Dave: [00:00:30] She said 14 multiple times.

Nathan: [00:00:32] Okay.

Dave: Is that consistent with your recollection?

Nathan: [00:00:35] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:00:36] I am Yeardley

Zibby: [00:00:38] I’m Zibby, and we’re fascinated by true crime.

Yeardley: [00:00:42] So, we invited our friends, Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby: [00:00:44] To sit down with us and share their most interesting cases.

Dan: [00:00:49] I am Dan.

Dave: [00:00:50] And I’m Dave. We’re identical twins and we’re detectives in small town USA.

Dan: [00:00:54] Dave investigates sex crimes and child abuse.

Dave: [00:00:56] Dan investigates violent crimes. And together we’ve worked on hundreds of cases including assaults, robberies, murders, burglaries, sex abuse, and child abuse.

Dan: [00:01:06] Names, places, and certain details including relationships have been altered to protect the privacy of the victims and their families.

Dave: [00:01:14] Though we realize that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we hope you’ll join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved out of respect for what they’ve been through. Thank you.

Yeardley: [00:01:34] Today on Small Town Dicks we have the usual suspects. We have Detective Dave.

Dave: [00:01:39] Afternoon.

Yeardley: [00:01:41] Afternoon sir and Detective Dan.

Dan: [00:01:43] Pleasure to be here.

Yeardley: [00:01:45] So, Detective Dave, you have a case for us today?

Dave: [00:01:48] I do. This is one of my social media Facebook cases involving a sexual predator. He’s an adult and his victims are children.

Zibby: [00:01:59] When you say adult, are you talking about a 40-year-old or 25-year-old.

Dave: [00:02:03] He’s late 20s.

Yeardley: [00:02:05] What age does he target?

Dave: [00:02:06] His strike zone is the 11 to 14-year-old crowd.

Zibby: [00:02:11] So, how did you come upon this guy?

Dave: [00:02:13] Sometimes, we have Facebook cases that the police never even hear about. The parents handle it in house and tell their daughter or son, “Hey, you’re losing your social media.” They blame the kiddo. In this case, we have proactive mom. She’s got a daughter who’s 13 and she tells her daughter, “Anybody creepy ever contacts you on Facebook, you come to me.”

Yeardley: [00:02:36] What’s the daughter’s name?

Dave: [00:02:37] Her name is Mandy.

Yeardley: [00:02:39] Okay.

Dave: [00:02:40] So, in this case, Mandy had received a friend request from a stranger. His name is Nathan, our suspect. So, Mandy gets his friend request from a complete stranger and accepts it. Right away, Nathan probably gets a notification, they accepted your friend request and he goes, “I’ll send her a message.” So, he sends her a direct message in Facebook and his pickup line– These guys always have lines. Nathan’s pickup line was, “It’d be really nice to cuddle with you.” His thing was all about cuddling.

Yeardley: [00:03:14] Right off the bat?

Dave: [00:03:15] Right off the bat. And the more I’ve done this job, the more I see he’s right away first interaction gauging how open this person is to contact with him. I’ve had other guys that their first message would be, “I bet you’ve got a really lucky boyfriend.” He’s fishing, right?” She’s either going to say, “I do have a lucky boyfriend and you can go pound sand,” or she’d say, “I do have a lucky boyfriend. What’s up with you?” Or, “I don’t have a boyfriend at all.” So, it’s always fishing. They announce their agenda right away. And in this guy’s case, it’s all about cuddling.

Yeardley: [00:03:49] The stakes are fairly low because I’ve heard you say that they’re sending messages like that to multiple people at the same time.

Dave: [00:03:56] Right. This guy, he was typical of every other online predator I’ve ever dealt with. He just shotguns messages out. He goes through a friend list if it’s not set to private. He’ll find girls of the age that he’s interested in and that he’s attracted to, and he’ll send out friend requests and then he sends them messages based on, “Did they accept my friend request or did they delete it?” So, he’s got all windows open to messages and he’s orchestrating different conversations at different points in those conversations and it’s all at the same time.

Yeardley: [00:04:31] Why would Mandy or anyone accept his friend request if he’s a total stranger? Is he masquerading as an acquaintance or something?

Dave: [00:04:39] He’s not masquerading at all. He’s got a picture of himself as his profile picture, adolescence like attention. This is a person that gives them attention, and this is a person who’s a stranger. So, there might be an aspect where they think, “This is harmless, I don’t even know this guy,” which is counterintuitive. It’s the person you don’t want to be talking to as a stranger. There’s some naivety there with the youth.

Zibby: [00:05:06] But also, if I receive a friend request and I click on their profile, you may not even have to click on their profile to see what friends you have in common. So, I’m more apt to accept that friend request even now as an adult, if I know that I have trusted friends who are also friends with him.

Yeardley: [00:05:23] Right. So, does it show up that they do have friends in common?

Dave: [00:05:25] He’s already gone through her school, so there’s different levels of information that people will attach to their Facebook profile, but a lot of them will announce which school they go to. So, he’s gone through one of her classmate’s friends lists and started friending all the girls that go to the school, all the girls that are similar age, and so they have friends in common because he’s already friended a bunch of her friends.

Yeardley: [00:05:48] I see. Some of those girls also said, “Yes, I accept your request.” So, by the time he gets to Mandy, there are friends in common. She feels like, this guy must be okay.

Dave: [00:05:57] Right. I’m sure there’s some curiosity there, “Who is this guy? Why is he messaging me? Why is he adding me as a friend?” You start going through their photos to see what they’re all about, what they look like, and in this case, that’s what happens. She accepts the friend request, but she has in her pocket that she’s got mom, who’s already on top of this.

Zibby: [00:06:16] Yes, mom.

Dave: [00:06:17] Yeah, Mom’s good. And mom has got an open line of communication with her daughter. Mom’s proactive, already has the talk before it’s too late. So, mom’s on top of things. Mandy brings this to her attention because Nathan, after just a few minutes and a few messages, sends a picture of his penis, his erection, and it’s like, boom, it’s right there. It’s unsolicited. There’s no conversation leading up to, “Okay, I’m about to receive a penis picture.” He just throws it out there. It’s another technique from him to test her boundaries. How’s she going to react to this? I asked her about cuddling. She was like, “Ha, ha, ha, what are you talking about?” Then honestly, within four or five messages, it’s, what do you think of that?

Yeardley: [00:07:04] Oh shit.

Dave: [00:07:06] So the alarm bells go off and she’s like, “I’m guessing this is what mom was talking about.” So, she goes, talks to mom. Mom reads through the messages, goes, you’re absolutely right, this is creepy. Mom says, “I’m going to call the police and bring it to their attention just in case he’s doing this with other girls.”

Yeardley: [00:07:23] Now, does mom also end the conversation between Mandy and Nathan?

Dave: [00:07:26] She blocks him. She blocks him on Facebook and Nathan just moves on to the next one. So, this sits out there for a couple of days as an information report with our officer, who writes down all the information. He gives me the username of Nathan’s page so I can find it. And it just gets forwarded back to detectives as information. And when I read those, I’m always like, “These are fun projects for me.” So, I see it and I drive directly out to the victim’s house and I say, “Can we chat for a little bit? I just got this information report. I was hoping to ask you a few questions.”

Zibby: [00:07:26] Why is this a fun project for you?

Dave: [00:08:06] It’s fun because I get to be a little bit creative about investigating something. I get to be proactive. Usually, we’re reactive. In this case, I can set a trap. Honestly, it’s a battle of wits, and I enjoy that aspect of investigations. You and I are facing off on Facebook. You’ve already announced your intentions with this clearly underage girl. And it’s important to note in that first few minutes of conversation, he asks how old she is. And she tells him, “I’m 13.” She asks, “How old are you?” He says, “I’m in my late 20s.” He says, “Does that bother you?” And she’s like, “Well, that’s a huge age difference.” He says, “Age is just a number,” which is a pretty typical thing that we hear from these predators. “Age is just a number. It doesn’t bother me.”

Dan: [00:08:53] I have a question. If he knows how old she is and he knows that he’s over 18 and that she’s under 18, and he sends her that picture of his penis, he has committed a crime. So, why is it labeled information?

Dave: [00:09:08] It was a fairly new law in our state, used to be an adult send juvenile picture that’s inappropriate, no harm, no foul. And now, we have a law that covers that, and it’s a narrative or photographic or video depiction of something sexual to entice that child into a sexual situation. So, we have something to cover that. But I know that a lot of our patrol guys were unfamiliar with that law. I mean, you got this whole book of laws and you’re like, I don’t know what that is. It should be illegal. But if you don’t know where to look or what it is, you’re not going to look up that law, you’re not going to find it. They bring it back to me and I’m like, “This is good. I’ve got something,” and I want to go after this guy. So, with this, I asked mom and Mandy, “Hey, do you mind if I take over your Facebook page?” And the mom’s like, “Oh, absolutely.” Her answer is yes. And the daughter’s like, “Yeah, you can do whatever. Here’s my login. Have at it.”

Zibby: [00:10:09] I love this mom-daughter duo.

Dave: [00:10:11] Yeah, they’re good. So, they give it, and I say, “I’ll be back in touch. In the meantime, don’t touch your Facebook page. I’m going to go right to my office and I’m going to change your login information. That way I know I’m the only one that’s been in your account.” “Okay, let us know.” And I go back to my office, go in, change her password, and I log in to her Facebook page, and I unblock him. And then I go hit like on one of his photos, boom within less than a minute, he’s sending me a message, “What are you up tonight? What’s going on?” And we start talking. We chat for several hours.

Zibby: [00:10:44] Huh, stop it.

Dave: [00:10:46] Well past where I’m like, “God, I got to be to work at seven in the morning and it’s getting late.” But he’s helping my investigation. The more we talk, he’s asking, “Hey, would you be interested in meeting up?” “Why do you want to meet up?” Well, he wants to hook up. Like, he wants to have a sexual encounter with me.

Zibby: [00:11:05] You masquerading as a teenage girl.

Dave: [00:11:06] This is where it gets a little awkward for me.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:11:09] I speak in the first person, because it’s me having the conversation. He thinks he’s talking to Mandy. I’ll make that clear. I hammer home multiple times. Does it bother you that I’m only 13 and I don’t know what I’m doing? Because I don’t want him to have any out. He’s going to know. She said she was 13 six times that conversation and also mentioned how inexperienced she is, and I mentioned his age multiple times. We’re checking boxes. Right?

Yeardley: [00:11:36] Right. Does he send you any more penis pictures or anything like that?

Dave: [00:11:40] This conversation is littered with his unsolicited penis pictures.

Yeardley: [00:11:44] Huh, oh my God.

Dave: [00:11:47] So, the thing with these Facebook stings is with our friendly coworkers, they give me quite a bit of ribbing for this stuff because they’re like, “Why are you so interested in talking to these sex offenders? Why do you like it so much? Why are you so good?”

[laughter]

Yeardley: [00:11:58] How did you learn to talk like a 13-year-old girl?

Dave: [00:12:01] Right. I don’t know what it is. What I do is I’ll go into their conversations and check out the language they use and their rhythm.

Zibby: [00:12:10] The victim’s emoji game.

Dave: [00:12:12] Honestly. Yeah. I check the emojis they use and what order they use them. I want it to match up with the previous conversation that they’ve had with that guy. So, I’m trying to match all that stuff up. And then at some point, we’re so deep in the conversation, it was nonstop for several hours that we talk. Over the course of that conversation, he commits several crimes, asking me for pictures, asking me to coordinate a time to meet him so we can engage in sexual activity. Those are all crimes in our state. And at the end of the conversation, I’m finally at the point where I’m like, “Okay, I’ve got lots of work to do tomorrow, but I need to go to sleep. “Hey, you want to meet? If so, where and when?” He says, “I’ll buy you lunch.” And I’m thinking, what a gentleman. He offers to take me out to Taco Bell.

Zibby: [00:13:03] Class act.

Yeardley: [00:13:04] Wow.

Dave: [00:13:04] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:13:18] Is there no question about how he might get Mandy away from school? It’s a school day, the next day.

Dave: [00:13:24] It’s a school day.

Yeardley: [00:13:24] I’m assuming at 13 you can’t just walk off campus to lunch.

Dave: [00:13:28] We agree that I’m going to skip my class right before lunch and that I’m going to meet him that way. I tell him what I’m going to be wearing to school tomorrow and he says, “Great.”

Zibby: [00:13:39] What were you going to wear, Dave? [chuckles]

Dave: [00:13:40] I was going to wear a red hoodie and some skinny jeans.

Yeardley: [00:13:44] Did you know she had a red hoodie?

Dave: [00:13:47] No.

Yeardley: [00:13:47] You’re just spitballing.

Dave: [00:13:48] Spitballing. Totally spitballing. I said, “A red hoodie, some skinny jeans, and I’ll see you there.” So, we coordinate the time that we’re going to meet there and his parting shot that night was to tell me all the places he wanted to put his penis.

Zibby: [00:14:03] Oh, jeez.

Yeardley: [00:14:03] Oh, gosh.

Dave: [00:14:03] Right. This guy is an absolute snake. He’s dirty.

Zibby: [00:14:07] Can I ask I know you’ve been doing this for a long time and you deal with these people all the time, but while you’re sitting there having this conversation that goes on and on while he incriminates himself. Does your blood boil? how do you even keep cool?

Dave: [00:14:20] Yeah. For me, Dan’s seen a lot of my interviews. There’re only a couple guys have ever really gotten a rise out of me, gotten under my skin where I really felt a primal urge to do something that would get me in trouble. It’s usually the way they show a lack of remorse or respect for the victims, the way they talk about victims. They have the ability, if they go that direction, to get under my skin. The stuff that this guy is saying about me, what he wants to do to me, is just evidence. It’s like, “Stupid. Thank you for saying that, but that was stupid. Boom. Thank you.” So, I’m just building a case. It’s uncomfortable for someone to tell you all the stuff they want to do to you, but for me, it’s like the big picture is, let’s get bad guy.

Zibby: [00:15:09] You’re hunting.

Dave: [00:15:10] Yeah, I’m hunting.

Dan: [00:15:13] One thing that we both have done is when you’re interviewing somebody and you’ve got a video recording of that interview, you watch it again. And when you watch it from a different angle, you’re going to notice body language that maybe you’re displaying to the suspect or if you didn’t wait long enough for answer. A lot of people, when they’re interviewing people, they think that silence is too awkward, and they have to fill that space with words. And a lot of times that silence, there’s a pregnant pause in there. And if you just wait a beat longer, you’re going to get what you’re looking for. So, Dave and I, we bounced those things off each other. I remember specifically one of the first sex offender cases that he had. He said, “Where did I screw this up? What could I have done better?” And we identified where Dave needed a break. And I said, “You shouldn’t ask for a break right there.”

Dave: [00:16:05] The other thing added was talking too much. I sat back and objectively looked at the interview, and I said, “It’s 100% right.” I can’t handle the uncomfortable silences. So, I fill it with speaking to this guy where I should have just let it hang there.

Yeardley: [00:16:21] And perhaps it’s a misperception, what you are doing in those rooms with those suspects isn’t actually a conversation, but in casual conversation, in social situations, we do fill the silence because it is awkward. But in your line of work, that silence could actually reveal something that you really need.

Dan: [00:16:39] Absolutely. I mean, that dance Detective Don has talked about, we’ve all talked about the dance in there. It’s a sales call. You’re in there trying to sell them handcuffs. So, when you ask for the sale, when you’re asking them to confess, whoever talks first loses. If I ask for the sale and I can’t wait long enough for my suspect to give it to me and I interject something I lost. I let him off the hook.

Dave: [00:17:06] It’s hard to get back to that point again in the same interview too.

Zibby: [00:17:09] That’s so interesting and makes so much sense. And even going back to this Facebook conversation where it’s not an interrogation interview per se, you’re masquerading as someone you’re not. It sounds to me still that you already have the mindset and you’re willing to bear the discomfort of what is going on in the immediate for the big picture.

Dave: [00:17:29] Yeah. We’ve talked about the gallows humor and I think people who know me are familiar that I can take quite a bit of shit from people.

Yeardley: [00:17:36] [laughs]

Zibby: [00:17:36] um-hm I know.

Dave: [00:17:37] I can handle it. I can pitch, but I can also catch if you’re talking shit to me, I can absolutely handle it usually. I can’t remember the last time I was offended about anything I heard.

Zibby: [00:17:37] You’re actually amazing at that because we rib each other all the time and I think I’m a decent shit talker. I have siblings. [Yeardley laughs] You’re good at it.

Dave: [00:17:56] You’re like a level six.

Zibby: [00:17:58] On a what? On one to ten.

Dave: [00:17:59] Who knows? I don’t know where it stops.

Zibby: [00:18:00] Let’s call it a one to eight. I’ll take it.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:18:02] You’re pretty good. Witty. You’re good.

Zibby: [00:18:06] Thanks.

Dave: [00:18:08] So, with this guy, I know that I’m going to have to go to briefing in the morning and be in front of all my detective friends. And Sergeant Dave is going to ask, so what do you got today? And I’m going to let him know what my project is. And it’s Nathan, and we got a date at lunch, and I’m going to have all my friends there, and we’re going to have a discussion with Nathan afterwards. But then the questions start from all the guys in briefing, so what’s Nathan going to do to you? What are you going to do to Nathan? So, it turns into humorous exchange in there. And everybody every time says, “God, you enjoy this way too much.” I think maybe you need to go talk to a counselor or something.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:18:50] But we also when we hear that he’s got one of these things going, we’re all super psyched because it’s fun for us. It’s a lot of fun to catch these guys.

Yeardley: [00:19:00] So, you have every expectation that Nathan is going to show up at this meet.

Dave: [00:19:03] It’s fairly entertaining because we’ll go out with Detective Kyle working a drug case and we talk about Tweaker time. Tweakers are notorious for being hours late to meetings.

Zibby: [00:19:15] If they show up at all.

Dave: [00:19:16] Right. So, we go out on these drug controlled buys and “Hey, this buy is going to take place at 6 o’clock tonight.” We all roll our eyes because we know that means more like 9 or 10 if it even happens at all. Never happens before the arranged time, it’s always way after. So, we’re familiar with that and, you know, “Okay, I’m going to be out at 6 o’clock.” So, I know that I need to basically get set up and prepared to be there for several hours watching. In this case, sex offenders are always on time.

Zibby: [00:19:50] So prompt they are.

Dave: [00:19:52] They are very prompt. Unless, of course, it’s Nathan. I sent him a message and say, “Can’t wait to see you at lunch, can’t wait to meet you.” Don’t get the notification that he’s even seen my message, but I’m going to be there. Fortunately, enough, I walked out to our records division and I said, “I need someone to go sit in this restaurant and wait for this guy.” I see one of our records personnel and she’s in her 20s and she’s wearing a red hoodie and black pants. And I was like, “No fucking way.” Just happened to be wearing I was like, “Perfect. I am drafting you and you are going to be my bait.” So, I send her over to this restaurant, and she sits there for 45 minutes, so much so that she finally sends me a text message. “How long do I have to do this?” Like, I have work to do.

[laughter]

Dave: [00:20:45] No, I get it. So, I was sitting at my computer that whole time. I had the team set up in a perimeter around this restaurant. I let him know what this guy looks like, put a little jacket of information together to hand out to everybody. This is who you’re looking for. This is what I’ve got. He no shows, stands me up. So, everybody comes back and starts giving me shit for basically turning it into a Detective Kyle, no show on a drug buy. I’m like, “I can’t believe this sex offender just stood me up, they never do.” So, about an hour later, I get a message from Nathan that says, “Oh, my God, I’m so sorry. I slept through my alarm and I missed the bus.” And I said, “So what’s the deal? He says, “I really want to meet up with you.

When are you out of school?” I said, “I get out of school like 02:45.” “Well, can we meet? I want to meet today. Can we meet?” I said, “Yeah, we can do that, but I’m not going back to that restaurant. It was really embarrassing. They had to come up and ask me to leave because I didn’t have any money to buy anything. I thought you were buying me lunch today.”

Zibby: [00:21:48] So good.

Yeardley: [00:21:49] [laughs] Go, Dave.

Dave: [00:21:50] He says, “Well, maybe we can meet somewhere else.” I said, “Well, I’m not going anywhere after school. I’m going back to my house. But my mom works until like, 10 o’clock tonight, so do you want to come over to my neighborhood?” “Yeah. Where do you want to meet?” And I start thinking, where do I want to meet?

[laughter]

Dave: [00:22:07] I’m not putting him anywhere near this girl’s house.

Zibby: [00:22:09] Yeah.

Dave: [00:22:09] Just in case he gets away, I don’t want him knowing this is where her neighborhood is. But I picked this park that’s got views for hundreds of yards. I can put our guys in the parking lot nearby to keep an observation point on this park where he’s supposed to meet me. He lets me know, “Well, I missed the bus, but maybe my grandma will let me borrow her car and some gas money.”

Yeardley: [00:22:36] And just as a refresher. You said that Nathan is in his 20s. Is he gainfully employed?

Dave: [00:22:41] He had been for [unintelligible 00:22:44]. He was working at a nice restaurant, like a classier place, as a busboy and got caught within hours of his first shift sneaking alcohol from the bar.

Zibby: [00:22:55] Oh.

Yeardley: [00:22:55] Uh-huh, I see.

Zibby: [00:22:57] Right.

Yeardley: [00:22:57] Are you going to enlist the same record’s girl in the red hoodie and black pants to walk into the park?

Dave: [00:23:01] No, I’m going to let him know. Why don’t you give me a heads up when you pull into the park? And I’ll walk over from my house. That way your car is not in front of my house. And he says, “Oh, perfect.” I said, “Because I’ve got a nosy neighbor and if she sees a car parked in front of my house and a boy walk up to the house, she’ll call my mom right away”

Zibby; [00:23:23] Thinking like a teenager.

Dave: [00:23:25] Right. And he’s saying, “Oh, great idea, cool.” So, we send the team back out and let them know this is about what time he’s going to be there. I check the distance he has to travel from where he’s coming from. I said, “Hey, just message me when you get into town or need directions.” He messages me half an hour later, says, “Hey, I’m at this intersection. Where are you in relation to that intersection?” I said, “Oh, you just need to take a left and go down and park by the playground.” This park’s pretty lengthy and that’s a really specific location in this park. And our guys are all like, “Perfect”. And I said, “What are you driving?” And he says, “A white SUV.” And he tells me what kind of stickers are in the back window and they’re big. It’s obvious who this guy is.

Pretty soon, Sergeant Dave says, “I got your vehicle and it’s headed right where you sent him. Should be there in about 30 seconds.” So, he pulls into the lot and says, “I’m here. And I said, “I’m on my way.” And I get word from our detectives that they have pulled up behind Nathan. I message him and I said surprise. And he meets my friends.

Yeardley: [00:24:48] So, you’ve successfully lured Nathan to the parking lot of this park where all the cops are now waiting for him. Does he seem to have any idea why they’re waiting for him?

Dave: [00:24:59] No, he thought he was getting stopped because he was checking his phone while he’s in the driver’s seat. And they’re like, “Bigger issues, dude, why don’t you hop into these bracelets that we got, a chariot awaits and we’ll drive you somewhere else. But before we leave, can we search your car?” He says, “Yeah, you can search it, it’s fine. He’s not worried about anything in there.” And they open the back door to this SUV and he’s got a bed made out in the back.

Zibby: [00:25:25] No, he does not.

Dave: [00:25:26] Yeah.

Zibby: [00:25:27] In grandma’s car.

Dave: [00:25:27] In grandma’s car, right, and condoms. You can absolutely tell what this guy thought was going to happen. I don’t think grandma’s carrying condoms and a skateboard around. There was a skateboard back there.

Dan: [00:25:40] When you’re trying to charge this guy appropriately. I mean, common sense tells you he was going there because he thought he was going to have sex with this minor. But the bed, the condoms, those are all indicators of his intent on why he was going there. And it’s just another little pebble in the scale of justice that gets you to guilty.

Zibby: [00:26:01] Right.

Yeardley: [00:26:03] He doesn’t put together, your posing as Mandy, writing surprise and the police showing up at the door of his car. He doesn’t marry those two things together yet.

Dave: [00:26:12] I think at some point it registers. But he never got to respond to that message because his hands were tied up.

Yeardley: [00:26:19] Uh-Huh, uh-huh.

Zibby: [00:26:20] Wow.

Yeardley: [00:26:20] So, it happened that fast.

Dave: [00:26:21] Yeah. And they bring him back to the police station and typically I’ll introduce myself as the name of the female, “Hi, I’m Mandy.” And they look at you like, “You don’t look like a Mandy.” [chuckles] So, I’ll let them know at some point. I don’t give it right away, but in these interviews, at some point you have to let them know, “I’m the one who’s been messaging you, asshole.”

Yeardley: [00:26:46] Does everything change? And they just go, oh, fuck.

Dave: [00:26:49] These Facebook stings almost every time I’ve gotten one of them, the classic line they’ll give is a variation of this.” I was never going to do anything with that girl. I was only meeting up with her to let her know how dangerous it is to meet somebody from online.” And when I called BS on that, they realized, I need a better answer than that or I need a different answer. So, those interviews are entertaining because my evidence is this chat log. And it’s kind of like Chris Hansen from To Catch a Predator. They’ll go through the chat logs on that show and that’s what we do. Like, “Tell me what you mean by this when you said you wanted to put it in this orifice, are we referring to sex?” I mean, they’re fairly obvious questions and answers, but I want to see how does he react.

[00:27:37] So in this situation, I do a little research on this guy while we’re still trying to coordinate when we’re going to meet up. I find that he’s listed in a neighboring agency in a rape report. With that information, I have more motivation. “I need to get this guy because I’m sure he is doing this with other people.” At the same time, I’m firing off preservation of records, letters to Facebook, because I want to preserve every bit of information on this guy’s account, because not so naive to think that Mandy’s the only one he’s talking to.

Zibby: [00:28:08] Right.

Yeardley: [00:28:08] So why isn’t he already a registered sex offender?

Dave: [00:28:11] That case hadn’t made it through the court process yet, through the trial, and he hadn’t been convicted. So, as such, he’s not a registered sex offender.

Yeardley: [00:28:19] Oh.

Dave: [00:28:19] And reading this report from this other agency, it’s a detective that we’ve had on the show, Detective J.

Zibby: [00:28:27] Oh, yeah.

Dave: [00:28:28] He’s got a case on this guy, but the guy fell off the radar, and he couldn’t locate him until he popped up on my caseload. So, in that case, Detective J has a similarly aged female in his city in which she’s been impregnated by this guy. He’s a bad dude and he’s shameless about it. I write a search warrant for Nathan’s Facebook page dating back to the time of his case with Detective J. So, I get a huge amount of data on this guy. I mean, we’re talking thousands and thousands of pages of his activity and it’s all messenger stuff. And this guy’s talking to over 50 girls.

Yeardley: [00:29:12] No.

Zibby: [00:29:12] Actively speaking to over 50 girls.

Dave: [00:29:15] Right. And around the time of my case, in the few weeks before and after he’s talking to I think I had 24 and 14 of which he had committed a crime against by either asking for a photo, sending a photo, that thing. Every single conversation within moments has the cuddle reference. And every single one of those conversations, if the girl engaged with him in any way, he sends a dick pic every time.

Zibby: [00:29:46] And this is information that you’re finding out prior to trapping him at the park, correct?

Dave: [00:29:51] Correct.

Zibby: [00:29:52] So you’re walking into this interview, loaded up with all of this information.

Dave: [00:29:56] Well, the search warrant I get afterwards, it takes weeks to get that. This whole case came together in about two and a half three days from the time of initial report to the time that I’ve got him in custody.

Yeardley: [00:30:05] And then he just sits in custody while you get that search warrant?

Dave: [00:30:08] Correct. So, I also wrote for his phone, and when we got into his phone, I come across text messages where the victim from Detective J’s case is speaking with Nathan. And in that case, she is like the jilted lover. She really cared about this guy. He was in it for one thing and one thing only, and he had sex with her, and he blames her for everything. He’s like, “Maybe you shouldn’t have messaged me and then that wouldn’t have happened to you. We wouldn’t have had sex.”

Zibby: [00:30:39] What a shit stain.

Yeardley: [00:30:42] He blames her for getting pregnant, the whole thing.

Dave: [00:30:43] Right.

Zibby: [00:30:45] So when you say it was a rape case, we’re talking a statutory rape.

Dave: [00:30:47] Right. It’s not by force. They had a, “consensual encounter.” As much as a 13-year-old can consent to sexual contact with an adult, which they can’t in our state, and she gets impregnated, and he pretty significantly shames her. He’s like, “I can’t believe that you didn’t use birth control.”

Yeardley: [00:31:06] Oh, my God.

Dave: [00:31:08] Paints a picture, right?

Zibby: [00:31:08] Sure does.

Dave: [00:31:09] So, my whole thing at that point is I want the jury to dislike this guy. I don’t want him to seem sympathetic whatsoever. And the more we get into his phone, the more you see what type of person he is.

Zibby: [00:31:24] We have the interview, but how did that go from your point of view?

Dave: [00:31:31] Fairly typical. Those guys will usually try a few different techniques. One is that I was never going to hook up with her. I was going to teach her a lesson about how dangerous it is to meet somebody online. The next thing they’ll go to is somebody hacked my account. That’s a pretty typical thing. “Well, somebody hacked my account. I haven’t even accessed my Facebook in months.” So, if I get into your phone, you’re not going to have the Facebook Messenger app on there and you’re not going to have any activity today? No. “Can I search your phone?” “Well, I’m not okay with that either.” So, then you’re like, “Oh, well, that was the avenue to vindicate you and now you’re not going to let me look at your phone. I just want to see if you got messenger on there.”

Dave: [00:32:21] Doyou know what I want to talk to you about?

Nathan: [00:32:22] I don’t know.

Dave: [00:32:23] Okay. Do you have a Facebook account?

Nathan: [00:32:27] Yeah, I’m in the process of trying to create a new one because mine’s been hacked by a couple different people.

Dave: [00:32:34] Do you know who hacked it?

Nathan: [00:32:36] I don’t. There’s a couple of different people that somehow obtained access to my account.

Dave: [00:32:41] Okay. You have a phone with you?

Nathan: [00:32:44] Yeah, it was with me, but I was in my car.

Dave: [00:32:47] What phone is it?

Nathan: [00:32:48] It is a black LG phone?

Dave: [00:32:50] Is it a smartphone?

Nathan: [00:32:53] Yeah, I guess so.

Dave: [00:32:53] Can access the Internet.

Nathan: [00:32:55] I do think so?

Dave: [00:32:55] Okay. Does it have a Facebook app on it?

Nathan: [00:32:58] Yeah, but I hardly ever get on Facebook.

Dave: [00:33:01] Hardly ever get on it. Okay. When’s the last time you were on Facebook?

Nathan: [00:33:08] Probably middle of last month.

Dave: [00:33:09] Middle of last month?

Nathan: [00:33:09] So maybe four times in a month.

Dave: [00:33:13] You’re starting to paint yourself into a corner with some of these answers.

Nathan: [00:33:16] Okay.

Dave: [00:33:17] And the reason I know that is because this is me typing all these messages.

Nathan: [00:33:22] Okay.

Dave: [00:33:23] I’m the one who suggested you park at the playground, which is where the police pulled up on you.

Nathan: [00:33:28] Okay.

Dave: [00:33:29] Are we starting to ring some bells?

Nathan: [00:33:31] I mean, like I said, I’m just trying to take care of some stuff before I go to work so I can try–

Dave: [00:33:36] And I know that not to be true that’s the problem.

Nathan: [00:33:40] Is it?

Dave: [00:33:41] I know you and I talked last night till almost midnight and then we talked today. And I’m the one who told you where to go to park at the playground and wait for me. Are we ringing bells now? Let’s step back a second, okay. Have you ever been in trouble before?

Nathan: [00:34:01] Yeah, but not for anything like this.

Dave: [00:34:03] Okay, well, what is like this?

Nathan: [00:34:06] This is some pretty serious accusations.

Dave: [00:34:08] What are the accusations? That you’re meeting at a playground, a juvenile girl.

Nathan: [00:34:12] Yeah, talking with underage girls and all that stuff.

Dave: [00:34:17] Okay, well, what’s the content of your conversation?

Nathan: [00:34:21] What do you mean?

Dave: [00:34:21] What were you guys talking about doing?

Nathan: [00:34:26] Me and supposedly you?

Dave: [00:34:27]Huh-uh.

Nathan: [00:34:28] Like I said, I haven’t talked to this person. I don’t know who this person is.

Dave: [00:34:32] Let me ask you, is your claim that it wasn’t you that was typing the messages that I’ve been going back and forth on for the last several hours, that’s your claim? I want to hear from you.

Nathan: [00:34:43] Yeah, I mean, like I said, “I have a son. I have an ex-girlfriend I’m trying to work get things out with.” I’m sorry. I’m just a little shaken up.

Dave: [00:34:50] And I’m telling you that this is what I investigate every day. And I am not saying that this is the end of the world-type stuff. Okay. But clearly, it’s illegal. You know that, right? Okay. What I want from you is the truth, because I’m going to end up writing a report down about what we talked about. And rather than putting in a bunch of lies and you not being accountable, I’d rather put in that you were accountable and that you told me the truth. You can understand why, correct?

Nathan: [00:35:21] Yeah

Dave: [00:35:22] Because this whole case is going to end up in a district attorney’s hands and they’re going to ask me, “Well, was he honest with you or did he blame it on somebody else?” So, do you want to rethink what you’re telling me? Because you and I both know that’s bullshit, that it was you who’s been on these conversations, okay.

[00:35:42] So, this is the chance, this is your opportunity to talk to me about this stuff and help me understand why that there’s a reason why we’re here. And you get to tell me what’s going on that gets us to this position today, where you’re parked in a playground waiting for a 14-year-old girl to come meet up with you. This is your opportunity. It doesn’t come tomorrow. This is the opportunity right now and you got to be honest with me about it. You got to be honest with yourself. So, are you ready to be honest with me about it?

Nathan: [00:36:17] Yes, sir.

Dave: [00:36:20] Okay, so walk me through what happened today.

Nathan: [00:36:23] Honestly, I planned to do everything that I said I’ve been trying to do. I was just going along with it. Obviously, I had my suspicions that it wasn’t who it was, and like I said, I’ve never really been in trouble for anything like this before.

Dave: [00:36:41] Okay. Did she ever tell you what her age was?

Nathan: [00:36:44] I think so and that’s probably why I’ve questioned it.

Dave: [00:36:48] How old?

Nathan: [00:36:51] I think she said 15 or 16.

Dave: [00:36:52] She said 14 multiple times and then I started saying 14, and I hammered it home multiple times. Is that consistent with your recollection?

Nathan: [00:37:02] Yeah.

Dave: [00:37:03] Okay, so you knew that this is a 14-year-old that you’re messaging with, correct?

Nathan: [00:37:07] Yeah.

Dave: [00:37:08] Okay. And what type of things were you talking about doing?

Nathan: [00:37:12] I mean, I was just going along with it, but there were definitely sexual things.

Dave: [00:37:16] Like what?

Nathan: [00:37:18] Any number of things, just sexual-natured things.

Dave: [00:37:22] Okay.

Nathan: [00:37:23] I was just playing along with it and I had my suspicions. I mean, that’s why I say that obviously I don’t want to get in trouble. I don’t want it.

Dave: [00:37:31] Well, nobody does. Nobody wants to get in trouble. Okay. And I understand that. And I’m guessing that you’re scared right now. Is that accurate?

Nathan: [00:37:39] Terrified.

Dave: [00:37:40] While you were on Facebook messenger last night, that was you, correct? Is that a yes?

Nathan: [00:37:49] I believe so, yeah.

Dave: [00:37:50] Do you believe so?

Nathan: [00:37:52] I mean, I just don’t want to incriminate myself any more than I already am. Like I said, there are other people who do have access to my account and I am in the process of trying to change it and all that stuff.

Dave: [00:38:05] Okay, well, I’m letting you know that you and I talked last night for a couple of hours up until about midnight, that you had expressed some interest in coming over. Do you remember that?

Nathan: [00:38:16] Yeah, I feel like I don’t know if I need legal counsel right now.

Dave: [00:38:23] I can’t give you legal advice. When you were advised of your rights, you were provided with that statement. Among those rights that you’re entitled to the right to an attorney. But I can’t make that decision for you.

Nathan: [00:38:35] No, I understand that. I’m just saying that at this point, there’s obviously no outcome where I’m not going to be let go today. Right.

Dave: [00:38:43] Well, I can’t make you any deals. I can tell you that.

Dave: [00:38:47] So, here he mentions that this would have never gotten to where it was had it not been for the female, the victim, contacting him. So now, typical of these guys, he’s a victim blamer, and he’s also the victim here, that this would have never happened, but this girl reaches out to me and what was I to do.

Nathan: [00:39:06] Had she not have, I think, approached me at first, I had no plans to try and meet up with this person.

Dave: [00:39:16] Okay, but it got there.

Nathan: [00:39:17] She seemed persistent and so it was intriguing.

Dave: [00:39:20] Okay.

Nathan: [00:39:21] The whole time I’m suspicious. It’s not something I do.

Dave: [00:39:27] Have you ever done this before?

Nathan: [00:39:28] No, sir.

Dave: [00:39:29] Okay. So, part of that conversation was, I think, last night you said you didn’t want to get in trouble. Correct. And you’re referencing this kind of stuff, right?

Nathan: [00:39:40] Yeah.

Dave: [00:39:41] Okay. And is that because you knew it was wrong?

Nathan: [00:39:44] I meanyeah. If she’s as old as she says she was.

Dave: [00:39:48] She’s really 14. Okay. And her mom really was upset. You can understand that you’re a father now, right?

Nathan: [00:39:56] Yeah.

Dave: [00:39:57] Okay. [crosstalk]

Nathan: [00:39:57] I was really curious as to why she was so adamant about meeting at first.

Dave: [00:40:05] Okay. But isn’t it you that brought up meeting?

Nathan: [00:40:08] I think it was like a mutual thing.

Dave: [00:40:11] Well, I can tell you because the conversation you were having was with me. You asked something like, “Is it bad that I want to kiss you?” And then you offered, could I see you? And then the conversation progresses. Correct?

Nathan: [00:40:25] Yeah.

Dave: [00:40:26] Okay. And then it progresses to the point where we’re talking about the kind of sexual activity that we’re going to engage in. Correct?

Nathan: [00:40:34] Like I said, it’s part of feeding into it or playing along, and the other part was just I guess it was just with what I’m going through, it was nice to feel wanted.

Dave: [00:40:44] Special.

Nathan: [00:40:46] Yeah. I mean, I know you can’t go off of what someone says as far as– scout’s honor, but it’s definitely an eye opener as far as how serious this is. You know, it’s not something that I do all the time. It’s not something that I would ever do again.

Yeardley: [00:41:14] It’s just fascinating to hear you set trap after trap for Nathan. He’s no match for you at all.

Dave: [00:41:21] Yeah. These interviews are more like icing on the cake for us, because all my evidence is the chat and everything, I’m going to get in the search warrant results off the phone, out of the Facebook page. That’s my gold mine.

Zibby: [00:41:32] What’s your best-case scenario in an interview in terms of what you get out of the suspect?

Dave: [00:41:38] I want to cover the elements of the crime. I want to cover their intent, why they did what they did. Is it intentionally? Is it knowingly? Is it involuntarily? Is it voluntarily done? I want to know in a perfect world that it’s knowingly and intentionally that they did what they did.

Zibby: [00:41:57] So, you’ve interviewed him. You’ve gotten all this insane backstory, thousands and thousands of pages of his records. What happens? Does this go to trial?

Dave: [00:42:08] Nathan sat in jail for quite a long time after we arrested him.

Yeardley: [00:42:11] Because you were investigating further.

Dave: [00:42:13] Right. And the train slows down considerably after the arrest. Around here, you have to have a probable cause hearing or grand jury within a certain amount of days or the defendant can waive that and say basically, “Yeah, I think you probably do have probable cause. I’m going to sit in jail and wait for the next status update which is 30 to 35 days.”

Yeardley: [00:42:39] And what’s the status update?

Dave: [00:42:40] It’s basically by that time, he’s got a lawyer, and that lawyer has been in contact with the prosecutor, and they talk about where we’re at with the case. I’ve never seen any case resolved in that short amount of time when it comes to these types of charges. So, they’re not going to plead guilty at that point. Probably around then, I had just gotten my Facebook search warrant results, usually takes several weeks. So, I’m going to let them know, “Hey, no resolution to this case until I get to the bottom of what’s going on in his Facebook page, and then we get the scope of what this guy is up to and what kind of damage he’s doing.” It would be months before we’d ever have any resolution in these types of cases. And so, it’s interesting in that time between him being arrested and him either going to trial or the case finally resolving, Nathan makes some phone calls. You guys know how I love phone calls.

Yeardley: [00:43:36] From jail.

Dave: [00:43:37] right.

Yeardley: [00:43:36] Which are recorded.

Dave: [00:43:37] He’s in jail. It lets you know multiple times that you’re being recorded. There’s also a sign right there at the phone that says, “This conversation is being recorded.” Nathan is hypersensitive to that and points it out pretty regularly.

Yeardley: [00:43:53] In his call.

Dave: [00:43:53] Right. He speaks with his father I believe and his father doesn’t give a shit. [laughs] It’s pretty entertaining because dad is thoroughly disgusted with his son and lets him know what he thinks about his son. This is not one of those, “This wasn’t my kid.” This is the opposite. This is a father who’s like, “You just drugged my name, our name, through the mud. You’ve done it again. What the F is your problem, son?”

Zibby: [00:44:20] So was he from a well-to-do family.

Dave: [00:44:23] Working class. Dad worked hard. He has two sons. So, Nathan is older brother to Sean. Sean is a few years younger. And Sean has an interesting story himself. Sean and Nathan grew up together. I gather this from the jail calls that Nathan has victimized Sean when they were juveniles.

Zibby: [00:44:47] As in he molested his brother.

Dave: [00:44:48] Right. Nathan and Sean, despite all that, are still pretty close brothers. That all happened when they were juveniles. At some point, they got over that and now they’re both adults. And we’ve got Nathan, who’s in his late 20s, Sean, who’s a few years younger than that. And the dad points out like, “This started years ago when you did what you did in our family. Now you’ve done it again.” And Nathan’s telling him, “Dad, we can’t talk about this.” Like this is being recorded. And the dad’s like, “I don’t give a shit. You’re going to hear how I feel about this.” And turns out Nathan’s had enough and hangs up on him.

Zibby: [00:45:28] [smiles]

Yeardley: [00:45:28] Wow.

Dave: [00:45:29] Yeah.

Yeardley: [00:45:30] Do they ever speak again?

Dave: [00:45:31] They do from time to time. Dad calms down a little bit, but is still thoroughly disgusted with his son. A few months later, Sean pops up on the radar. I hear his name in a meeting about local sexual abuse cases in which we discuss and go over the status of other jurisdictions, other agencies, what they’re doing with cases. And I hear the last name and I say, “Is that guy any relation to Nathan?” And they’re like, “Yeah, it’s his little brother.” I said, “Oh, what’s going on with him? What’s that case?” Same exact circumstances. He’s on Facebook, reaching out to 13, 14-year-old girls, trying to hook up with them, and he ends up meeting a detective, and he gets sentenced to prison.

Yeardley: [00:46:19] Oh, that poor dad.

Zibby [00:46:21] Did Nathan end up going to trial?

Dave: [00:46:23] No, Nathan didn’t take his case to trial. He pled guilty because there was a mountain of evidence against him.

Yeardley: [00:46:28] How much time did he get?

Dave: [00:46:30] I don’t remember the specifics, but I think it was in the neighborhood of 12 to 14 years.

Yeardley: [00:46:35] Did that seem like enough to you?

Dave: [00:46:38] Did it seem like enough for me? I think we’re scratching the surface on what this guy has actually done, but in the grand scheme of things, you’ve heard this from me before, 10 years is a long time. 12 to 14 years and he never got his hands on my victim. That’s a pretty substantial hit.

Zibby: [00:46:55] Right.

Dave: [00:46:56] Nathan pled guilty to the charges associated with my case as well as Detective J’s case. So, he gets a lot longer sentence than his brother did, but they end up at the same correctional institution.

Zibby: [00:47:09] Oh, stop it.

Dave: [00:47:11] So, they get to spend birthdays and holidays together. I reunited a family.

Yeardley: [00:47:15] Seems unusual that you would have two brothers who do the same thing and their preference is the same age of girl.

Zibby: [00:47:22] It does seem unusual, but it makes me think of what’s often described as that cycle of abuse, where the abused eventually go on to become abusers and so on and so forth. Do you feel like that’s the case with Nathan and Sean?

Dave: [00:47:35] Yeah. I tend to think of sex offenders as their own beings, their own entities. Certainly, I’ve had cases where they span generations, so I don’t know if that’s a learned behavior. We have other cases where I have somebody who offends and they will make the claim, well, I learned this because I got sexually abused when I was a kid. We’ve had situations where in a treatment setting, we’ve put those same offenders on the polygraph, and they’ve failed a polygraph when asked, “Were you sexually abused as a child?” So, they’ll use that kind of as a crutch or an excuse. So, when I hear that, well, they must have been abused as a child, I kind of roll my eyes, because to me, it’s a wiring issue with the person.

Yeardley: [00:48:18] And it’s so inconsistent.

Dave: [00:48:19] Right. There’s nothing that will convince me that because you were sexually abused as a child means that now you’re going to sexually abuse other people. Because there’s plenty of people who have had horrible things happen to them that they don’t necessarily turn into monsters and they go out victimizing people.

Yeardley: [00:48:35] Dave, in your small town how many cases a year would you say you investigate involving online sexual predators with minors?

Dave: [00:48:44] Oh, I mean, we’re in a small area, several cases a year, which I say a case where it’s just that suspect. But that’s just what comes to our attention.

Zibby: [00:48:54] But that suspect has how many girls?

Yeardley: [00:48:56] Its multiple victims?

Dave: [00:48:58] Dozens and dozens. Hundreds.

Zibby: [00:48:59] So, you could probably safely say right now in your small town, there are at least 150 girls being preyed upon online.

Dave: [00:49:10] That’s probably a low number.

Zibby: [00:49:12] Okay, that’s insane to me.

Dan: [00:49:15] One thing that I noticed over the years of watching these stings is all these suspects seem to dress the same too.

Zibby: [00:49:21] Like what?

Yeardley: [00:49:23] Yeah, what’s the dress code?

Dave: [00:49:24] They don’t dress consistent with their current age. Like they’re trying to be a little bit trendier. The guys that I dealt with I cannot imagine if I was a female wanting to have anything physical to do with these guys. They’re dirt bags, poor hygiene. They’re stationed in life. These guys are losers. These are not ambitious men. These are like jobless dirty. They are opportunists. They’re manipulative.

Dan: [00:49:53] Right, which begs the question, obviously they can’t compete for women their own age. Their strike zone as Dave likes to say, is different than normal people. But also, the girls in that strike zone are just developing. They have questions about their own self-esteem, and these guys prey upon that.

Zibby: [00:50:14] Yeah. And the other thing that you’ve mentioned before is they’re the outsider coming in and going, look, “I’m an outsider. I get it. Nobody gets you like I get you.”

Dave: [00:50:25] Right. It makes them eccentric and special.

Yeardley: [00:50:26] Right. But this is just one type of sexual predator. I do think it’s worth noting that they actually come in all sizes and shapes and socioeconomic backgrounds, because you’ve always said that sexual predators are really good at blending in. That’s actually one of the things they do exceptionally well.

Dave: [00:50:47] Absolutely. These guys know that to continue committing their crimes and having the ability to sexually abuse people, that they need to avoid detection. So, they’re going to do whatever they can, self-preservation, avoid the cops.

Yeardley: [00:51:02] Well, Dave, as always, you blow our minds.

Zibby: [00:51:05] Truly. Thank you so much for sharing this case. I found it to be really educational too.

[music]

Yeardley: [00:50:38] Small Town Dicks is produced by Zibby Allen and Yeardley Smith, and coproduced by Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby: [00:51:20] This episode was edited by Soren Begin, Yeardley Smith, and Zibby Allen.

Yeardley: [00:51:25] Music for the show was composed by John Forest. Our associate producer is Erin Gaynor and our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell.

Zibby: [00:51:35] If you like what you hear and want to stay up to date with the show, head on over to smalltowndicks.com and become our pal on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at @smalltowndicks. We love hearing from our Small Town Fam, so hit us up.

Yeardley: [00:51:49] Yeah. And also, we have a YouTube channel where you can see trailers for past and forthcoming episodes.

Zibby: [00:51:56] That’s right. If you choose to subscribe, you’ll be supporting our podcast. That way, we can keep going to small towns across the country and bringing you the finest in rare true crime cases told, as always, by the detectives who investigated them. Thanks for listening. Small Town Fam.

Yeardley: [00:52:11] Nobody’s better than you.

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