Yeardley:  Previously, on Chasing the Golden State Killer with Paul Holes. Paul and the genealogy team finally had a name for the vicious serial offender they’d been trying to identify for decades. Now in the finale, the investigation reaches its end.

Paul:  So, my cell phone had her name, right? So, I see it light up and I say, “Hi, Mary.” And she is crying and she’s saying, “Is it him? Is it really him?” I was like, “Yes, Mary, it’s him. And he’s never going to be free again.”

Yeardley:  But the end of a case is never just about the arrest. It’s about the victims who, in this case, waited years for answers, and the investigators who refused to let the case disappear no matter how long it took.

Paul:  You know, this case definitely took a huge toll on me, just as an individual with the effort, the obsession, the personal life impacts.

Yeardley:  In this final episode, Paul looks back at the case, the cost, and the last thing he did as a law enforcement officer.

Paul:  And that’s when I put the shift into drive and drove home. And that was the last thing I did as a law enforcement officer.

[music]

Yeardley:  Episode 10, “Endgame.” When we left off last episode, Paul, DeAngelo had just been arrested. Dan, I’m going to throw it to you because you have a really good question about what comes next when they search DeAngelo’s house.

Dan:  One of the things that struck me when we were talking about this case and what I’m thinking about is I want to imagine the “oh shit” moments that Joseph DeAngelo had over the years. And obviously, there were some when he was offending, but I think a big “oh shit” moment, probably bigger than him being rat-packed and thrown in a van, [chuckle] is the “oh shit” moment when he realizes that he has left his DNA at all these crime scenes. And him watching the progression of the technology and DNA, I mean, if you think about it, when you guys were doing surveillance on him, he’s been looking over his shoulder for a bit, and I wonder how many times he had just pulled over on the freeway and how long he’s been doing this where it’s haunting him.

Paul:  Yeah, and Ken Clark and I did discuss, did he see something that spooked him or was this something that he did on a regular basis because he’s so paranoid? And you’re spot on about DeAngelo. At a certain point, probably circa 1995, O.J. Simpson case, he’s hearing about this DNA technology and he’s going, “Oh shit.” Now, with the standard DNA technology that law enforcement uses and searching the CODIS DNA database that requires a one-to-one match. So, he knows that as long as he doesn’t get arrested for a qualifying crime, he controls law enforcement’s access to his DNA. This is where the power of the genealogy tool is huge. He can’t control what his fourth cousin is doing.

 And so now imagine the “oh shits” that are going on by all of these offenders that realize, “I’ve left my DNA,” and we’re seeing all these old cases, horrific cases being solved because of genealogy.

Dan:  And I remember you talking about DeAngelo had a close family member who offered to the family, “By the way, I did this 23andMe.”

Paul:  Yes.

Yeardley:  And DeAngelo lost his mind.

Paul:  I’m not going to identify the relationship or who she is. But yeah, she told me she had done 23andMe, which, of course, when we’re looking for the Golden State Killer, we didn’t have access to 23andMe. Otherwise, it would have been very, very easy to identify DeAngelo at that point. But she told me, “I did 23andMe. And I told Joe,” and Joe literally glared at her and she said it was a really angry look because he is going, “Shit.” And he’s, of course, probably not even thinking. He would not know anything about this specialized genetic genealogy tool. It’s called DNA segment triangulation. But he’s also recognizing, “She is closely related to me. Part of my DNA is part of her.”

Yeardley:  This puts me in jeopardy.

Paul:  Yes.

Yeardley:  Yes.

Dave:  You’ve got just scores of serial killers sending out mass emails to their family. Like, “If you’re thinking about joining, [Paul laughs] don’t.”

Yeardley:  “Don’t do it.”

Dave:  “I send you Christmas cards every year. I know where you live.” [Yeardley laughs]

Paul:  So, DeAngelo gets taken in and he’s put into the interview room and he is dejected. He sits in a slumped over posture. He’s handcuffed to the table. And we’re just watching him and he literally is motionless. I mean, no movement at all for like an hour.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Paul:  And we’re like, “How is he doing that?” [Yeardley laughs] And then at one point, he slightly shifts and we almost gasp. It’s like, “What?” So, one of the female deputies, who is the sergeant over their sexual assault unit is looking at that, going, “That’s what he’s doing in the backyards of his victims. He is finding a shadow and then he just goes “dunk,” completely motionless as he’s watching the victims inside the house.” I was like, “Yep, spot on.” I mean, I will tell you, this was uncanny in terms of how long he was absolutely still.

Dan:  In that photo of him sitting handcuffed to the table there, he’s got big calves.

Paul:  Yes. You see him in the middle photograph. And I know the listeners can’t see this, but this is a photograph that probably should not have been taken. I won’t say who took it. I didn’t take it, but I got a copy of it. But this is him being brought into Sac Homicide. And you’ve got a couple of the arresting deputies on either side holding him. But take a look at his build. He is heavy. He is overweight.

Yeardley:  Yeah. But also looks like he could do some damage to you.

Paul:  He is a physically– [crosstalk]

Yeardley:  Imposing specimen.

Paul:  Imposing specimen. This is what he looked like as the Visalia Ransacker. But then look at him. Everybody sees him in a wheelchair, and he is gaunt and thin.

Yeardley:  And he’s pretending to be very frail.

Paul:  Right. Which was bullshit.

Yeardley:  Bullshit. Because then I saw the video online where DeAngelo is back in his cell in prison, and he’s climbing all over the bed and the table and the shelves like a monkey.

Paul:  Yep. He’s trying to minimize what’s going to happen to him by pretending to be this frail old man, which it was bullshit. But if you take a look at him as a thinner person, this is him as the East Area Rapist and compare and contrast the heavyset DeAngelo to the thin DeAngelo. He remarkably looks different. So, now, this addresses those physical discrepancies between Visalia Ransacker and East Area Rapist. And within six months, he is appearing in court very soon after he’s arrested, and he’s already lost a ton of weight. When I went into his house, well, one of the reasons he’s lost weight is he was eating peanut butter off of a spoon and drinking Dr. Peppers. I mean, he did not have a healthy lifestyle. [Yeardley laughs] In jail, people are thinking, “Oh, he’s going to die soon. Look at him. He’s getting sick.”

 I was like, “No, he’s probably on a medically supervised diet,” and he’s getting healthier. He’s going to live longer as a result of being taken into custody.

Yeardley:  Right.

Dan:  So, going back to the day of the arrest, he’s sitting in an interview room for an hour, motionless. At some point, someone’s going to go in there and talk to him.

Paul:  Yes. So, Ken and I had developed a strategy where Ken was going to go in to talk to him about the Sacramento cases and specifically hope for statements related to Maggiore for the homicide. And then I was going to join Ken to talk to DeAngelo about the Central Valley and East Bay cases, because I knew those better than Ken. Ken knew his cases, and I knew the cases out of my jurisdiction as well as Stockton and Modesto. Ken goes in and takes the tack of, “Hey.” He doesn’t say it like this, but in essence, “You are good. Look how long it took us to catch you.”

Dave:  Play to the ego.

Paul:  DeAngelo’s not even looking at Ken. DeAngelo’s picked a spot on the wall, and it’s just sitting there. And Ken is monologuing, Adam, I will tell you up front, DeAngelo never made any statements. To this day, he has never made any statements related to his crimes outside of what he had to say in court in order to take the deal. So, Ken is there. Ken is coming in and out, and there’s soda being delivered to DeAngelo. He’s not touching it. He ends up, like, with two or three bottles of water and soda in front of him, and he’s not even doing it. And we’re thinking, “He thinks we’re trying to get his DNA. Little does he know.”

Yeardley:  Oh, we’re good. [laughter]

Paul:  “You can go ahead and drink your Dr. Pepper.”

Dave:  “Yeah. Hey, by the way, right? What you’re worried about leaving on that, we already have it. Why do you think we’d be knocking on your door?”

Paul:  And fundamentally, what ended up happening because of the lack of progress, plus the concern about possibly invoking Miranda, it was decided I wasn’t going to go in there to talk to him. We better get the investigators that have homicides from Southern California at least to have an opportunity to talk to him before he does invoke. So, I was aced out of any type of face to face with DeAngelo. At one point, Ken Clark tells DeAngelo, “There’s a lot of people here who want to talk to you. Paul Holes is here.” And DeAngelo visibly reacts. Ken’s talking to him. And when my name was said, DeAngelo, you could see him have a visceral reaction to my name being stated. And Ken comes out and he goes, “He knows you.”

Yeardley:  Ah, does that scare you?

Paul:  Not now.

Yeardley:  Not now. [laughter]

Dave:  There’s lots of documentaries.

Paul:  I’ve been on multiple.

Dave:  I am certain he was checking them all out.

Paul:  Yes. And I will tell you, one of the things that I did do is when I did get into his house, his daughter had all sorts of books in her room. And I was scanning to see if I could find Michelle McNamara’s book.

Dave:  Oh.

Paul:  Did he pick that up so he could see what was written about him?

Yeardley:  Right.

Dan:  When do you guys serve the search warrant at the house?

Paul:  So, he’s arrested and now you have Ventura going in and talking to him. Nothing. Orange County goes in. We alerted, literally once he’s in custody, Anne Marie is calling up her counterparts down there and says, “By the way, Golden State Killer has just been arrested. If you want a shot at him, you guys need to get your investigators up now.” So, now, those agencies that weren’t invited up ahead of time, they are on the road. That’s depending on where you’re at. Six-to-eight-hour drive. They’re having to scream up California to be able to get in front of DeAngelo that night.

Dave:  And it could have been different.

Paul:  Could have. It absolutely could have.

Dave:  Like, “Hey, we’re all on team ‘let’s arrest bad guy.’”

Paul:  But, part of it, even though, like Steve Kramer, my concern was we are going to be shut down from pursuing the avenue that we thought was going to solve the case. There is also this huge high-profile case that you did not want leaked to the media ahead of time. There was stuff happening where now the sheriff is stepping in and captains are coming in because somebody had alerted somebody in the media. And so, there was churn going on. So, the fact that we didn’t have all these other agencies involved in essence helped contain the arrest of the Golden State Killer until it was time to announce that arrest had actually occurred.

 So, when I saw the lack of progress that Orange County investigators were having with DeAngelo, and this is roughly at 3 AM in the morning, I was just like, “You know what? I got to be at his house by like 7 AM, I need to get some sleep.” So, I go home, get a little bit of sleep and drive back up and go straight to DeAngelo’s house.

Dave:  So, when DeAngelo’s arrested at his house, the police basically just hold that until the next day when the search warrant’s going to be executed.

Paul:  Yes. No reason to rush things. You don’t need to process this at night. It’s not like homicide just occurred inside that house and now you’re concerned about losing evidence.

Yeardley:  Even though DeAngelo’s daughter is still at the house and presumably his wife, you’re not afraid that his one phone call could be like, “Get rid of everything.”

Paul:  Oh, I will tell you that if the daughter was at the house, she was no longer at that house after he’s arrested, she would be told, “You need to go elsewhere.”

Dave:  That’s an eviction notice.

Paul:  Yes. [laughs] And the wife and DeAngelo had separated back in 1991, even though they were still married at the time of the arrest. She had her own house.

Yeardley:  I see. Originally, DeAngelo was going to go to trial, and then DeAngelo ends up taking a deal. How long is that between the charges and him saying, “No, I’ll plead guilty to something”?

Paul:  It’s roughly two years. So, he was taken into custody April 2018, and it was during the pandemic that ultimately, he was taking the deal. I had to go out to California, to Sacramento, and because of the pandemic, they could not hold the hearings in the court. And they knew there’s going to be a lot of demand, there’s a lot of attendees. And so, we initially, in the audience in this conference room, we had to, of course, have our masks on, but we were seated in chairs that were six feet apart. And so, we sat there and had to go through that hearing. And then he ends up taking the plea deal, which, quite frankly, I was elated about.

Yeardley:  Why?

Paul:  Well, first, this probably wouldn’t go to trial for–

Dave:  Years.

Paul:  Years.

Yeardley:  Because there’s so much evidence, so–

Paul:  So many cases, there’s so many ways that his attorneys could delay things. I mean, I’ve had one case, a cold case, in which the guy that got caught was elderly. And I had the defense attorney, who was a former prosecutor, bumped into him, and he said, “Yeah, our strategy is to delay, delay so he dies, not on death row.” That was literally the strategy.

Yeardley:  What are the terms of DeAngelo’s deal?

Paul:  Fundamentally, Anne Marie made the decision that she would seek death, so he had that hanging over his head. Even though we haven’t seen an execution in California in so long, it still is a bargaining chip.

Yeardley:  I see.

Paul:  The deal was that the state would not seek the death penalty in exchange for DeAngelo to plead guilty to all the crimes he was charged with. And Anne Marie, because we have sexual assaults that were truly past statute that he couldn’t be charged with, Anne Marie demanded that he admit in open court to all of those cases. So, all the victims had a sense of justice.

Yeardley:  And it’s life in prison without parole.

Paul:  Yeah, LWOP.

Yeardley:  Yeah, LWOP.

Dan:  So, Paul, when you go to the house with the search warrant the next day, in an earlier episode, you said you saw a towel thrown over the computer monitor. Was there anything else that stood out to you?

Paul:  The things that stood out is that the outside of the house was immaculate. He really took care of his yard. He had built, I guess I would call it, a mini house for his grandkid.

Yeardley:  Like a playhouse.

Paul:  Yeah, playhouse. But this was not just a small little Rubbermaid thing that you can buy at Walmart. This was something that was substantial in the backyard. He had a boat in the garage. A family member had told me he was big into fishing. And it turns out that one of his coworkers and DeAngelo would go out fishing. Something I learned later but tickles me to this day as I talked about him becoming a truck mechanic. And he worked for the same firm the entirety of that career. Turns out that DeAngelo, who was arrested April 24, 2018, retired the end of March 2018 from that career, the same time I retired from my law enforcement career. I think my retirement has gone better. [laughter]

Dave:  Well, he doesn’t have any bills. [laughter]

Paul:  That’s true.

Dave:  You know, that’s weird stars aligning type stuff.

Paul:  It absolutely is. So, I go to DeAngelo’s house. We walk through the house. I make certain observations that I express to the CSI team just because of my case knowledge. And then I have to go to the press conference. And this is where now it’s announced to the world that DeAngelo has been arrested for being the Golden State Killer. Anne Marie is the first one to talk. This is her show to start because it’s in Sacramento, and she’s the one that’s going to be prosecuting, or her office is going to be prosecuting. But then each DA stands up to talk. My DA is the one that basically threw my name out there, saying, “Paul Holes using novel and progressive technology, blah, blah, blah.” So that’s in part how I got some of this notoriety up front in terms of helping solve the case.

 At the point where the Orange County DA is talking, I was just like, “Hmm, no.” I turned to Steve Kramer standing next to me and I say, “I have victims that I have to go notify.” ’Cause we had tried to notify all of them before the press conference, but of course, with so many victims, you can’t get ahold of everybody. So, I walk off stage left and I go to the far corner of the parking lot. So, I’m away from the press and I’m trying to get a hold of select victims. And then of course, as I’m coming back, press conference is done. And then this is where now the media is starting to come up and do the interviews. Finally finish that. I get in my car and we had prearranged to go get lunch with the genealogy team.

 And so, I was in the process of driving out there and I get a call from a victim I have not talked to in a decade. This was a victim, Mary, who was 13 years old when she was raped by DeAngelo and her father was in the next room. I had initially reached out to her to see if she’d be willing to meet and have an interview now that she– so many years later and she just couldn’t bring herself to do it. So, this is always a tough one for me. So, my cell phone had her name. So, I see it light up and I say, “Hi, Mary.” And she is crying and she’s saying, “Is it him? Is it really him?” I was like, “Yes, Mary, it’s him and he’s never going to be free again.” And she sobs and she says, “I’m sorry. I’m not sad. I am so, so happy.”

Yeardley:  Sweet.

Paul:  Yeah. And ultimately, through the court process, we have victim impact statements.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Paul:  And Mary does give an impact statement, and she was confronting him. “How dare you? You come into a 13-year-old girl’s room. I had posters on the wall of unicorns and butterflies,” and I truly saw all these victims and the trauma that they’ve had over decades. And I know Anne Marie and I we got together and it was just like, “This is overwhelming.” You know, even though we were elated of the success, it was also so almost depressing going, “Well, we gave them an answer, but we can’t take away what they’ve suffered.”

Yeardley:  Exactly. It doesn’t really change anything. It just closes a chapter.

Paul:  Yep.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Dan:  Paul, when we talk about basically the court side of this and DeAngelo’s sitting in court, he’s playing it up, sitting in a wheelchair, of course.

Paul:  Right.

Dan:  But we have all these victim statements. Is there a moment or are there multiple moments during that process that really stick out to you?

Paul:  There’s multiple moments. Not all victims gave impact statements, but a fair number actually did. And of course, just seeing the sheer number of victims, one after another, confronting him, that in of itself was the stark reality of the magnitude of the case. One of the moments that was stunning and even the media picked up on it, is Bonnie.

Yeardley:  Right, Bonnie, DeAngelo’s former fiancée.

Paul:  Yeah. You know, she in essence was victimized by DeAngelo, though he didn’t commit the type of attack on her. She was not allowed to make an impact statement of course. But Jane Carson invited her in as a guest. And so, when Jane gave her impact statement, Bonnie stood up and stared at DeAngelo. So, that was something. You see these two victims, in essence, helping each other out. Another moment. The one woman that I talked about, out of my jurisdiction, who was severely traumatized, moved down to Mexico, she’s the one that loved to water-ski. And she never told me this, but after her attack, after he said, “I’ve seen you at the lake,” she confronted him and said, “I could never water ski again.”

 Another moment. And this was a victim out of San Jose, and I actually worked with her brother. I remember before anything about the East Area Rapist case, he had told me while we were coworkers that his sister had been a victim of the East Area Rapist. Well, she confronted DeAngelo and had pretty significant amount of family with her. And after she walked out of the court, she collapsed. So, you can imagine the emotional toll to get up and confront. So, these are just a few examples. I talked about Mary and her impact statement. You have the second Stockton victim that really laid into DeAngelo, but also laid into her DA’s office saying, “You guys failed me just over the course of time.” You know, so lots of emotions being expressed during that process.

 And DeAngelo didn’t look at a single victim. Some of the victims called him out, called him a coward. So, at the moment where we’re back in the conference room, that was on the college campus where we’re doing some of the hearings, as a result of the size of the attendees, the impact statements occurred actually in court in the actual courthouse. But back in the conference room, all the victims and the families of the victims were sitting on the right-hand side of this auditorium.

 And then of course, us, law enforcement, as well as other individuals that were attending were on the left-hand side. And DeAngelo was given his opportunity to address the victims. And this is when he stood up and turned around and faced the victims and apologized. And I will tell you, when he stood up, there was an evil aura. I could feel his presence. It was almost like angel of death spreading its wings. And the apology, what he was doing in that moment was he had been called a coward. And I go, “There’s that vindictive guy going, ‘Fuck you. I can look at you and I can talk to you and I can intimidate you by standing up.’”

Yeardley:  And what did he actually say in his apology? I mean, it was a very brief “I’m sorry.” And that was it.

Paul:  It was a very just straightforward, “I’m sorry.” I don’t remember if there was anything more to that. I mean, his admission was him pleading guilty and saying, “Yes, I did all of this.” You know, so that has already occurred at this point.

Yeardley:  And were the victims present for that admission?

Paul:  Yes, this was a very long day. You know, of course the hundred fetish burgs that he did as Visalia Ransacker was not part of this. But you have the 13 murders and then you have the kidnap robberies that he was charged with, plus you have the sexual assaults that he couldn’t be charged with. He had each case, at least ones he was charged with. It’s not just homicide or murder. You have multiple crimes that are stacked within each case. So, this going case by case by case with each DA’s office, the representatives getting up and reading all the crimes within each case took forever.

Dan:  I imagine those victims sitting in that room waiting for basically your name to be called and that anxiety and that fear and whatever emotions run through these victims just slowly building up. And then you’re reliving while the charges are listed, you’re probably reliving the incident.

Paul:  You know, the victim with the water-skiing passion. I approached her ahead of time and she was just absolutely tunnel visioned. She hardly even acknowledged that I was there. She actually came up to me afterwards and apologized, but she was so focused and you imagine how nervous. But you also have those deep emotions that you want to be able to express at the same time. I don’t even know if I can comprehend putting myself in their position and what they must have been feeling.

Dave:  And it’s thousands of sleepless nights and it’s thousands of moments or days of looking over your shoulder when you hear a noise and you don’t expect one. It’s all that. And I’ve not been a victim like any of these folks, but I’ve dealt with a lot of people who have been victims of really horrible stuff. And that’s what they talk about is the lasting impact stuff that if you’re not exposed to that, then you have no idea the torment that even if the trial takes place a year later, what that does to people.

Paul:  Well, the second female Stockton victim, I had developed a really good relationship with her just as a result of my investigation into the developer side. And her and her husband had a, I don’t know if you call it a vacation house that was up in the foothills somewhere in the Sierras. And I met my daughter’s– one of my daughter’s athletic, it was at a volleyball game or a water polo, I can’t remember exactly. And I get a call from her and she goes, “I’m at my vacation house, I know I had turned my thermostat off. It’s on. He’s been here.” So that paranoia she’s been living with forever.

Yeardley:  It’s totally understandable.

Dave:  Yeah.

Yeardley:  To your point, Paul, mustering the courage to get up and face your attacker. But that moment has been percolating for decades now. So, every single one of those statements must have been a little bit like a volcano erupting.

Paul:  Yes. And working the case, I didn’t ever consider that identifying the Golden State Killer and putting a name and putting the person, bringing that person into custody, that, that in and of itself is a traumatizing thing for these victims. Many of them, of course, they suppressed what had happened.

Yeardley:  You’d have to.

Paul:  And then now everything bubbles to the surface. And that’s where talking to a couple of them, like, the first time they’re sitting in court and he gets wheeled in and is, you know, there’s just like massive impact on them emotionally.

Yeardley:  Yeah. Paul, back in the beginning of this podcast series that we’re doing, you were describing the husbands not being able to protect their wives, and you got choked up. And everything about this case is so awful. I’m always curious about why one specific detail affects you deeply in that way.

Paul:  Well, I’ve choked up several times. Right?

Yeardley:  You have. And I appreciate you being so open with us.

Paul:  You know, this case definitely took a huge toll on me, just as an individual, with the effort, the obsession, the personal life impacts I saw in person. In particular, one male he broke down right in front of me. And I think part of that was now, instead of me looking at the names of these victims on a piece of paper, it’s now, “Oh,” and one of the aspects, as I was going through this investigation and I saw it during the original investigation, is there’s a big focus on the female victims. They’re the ones who are being sexually assaulted. And so, the investigators, of course, are trying to figure out, well, why is she being chosen for the sexual assault? And they’re doing a lot of victimology that they write in their supplements. Very little victimology from the males. Right?

Yeardley:  Right. But they are also victims.

Paul:  And it was just that recognition, especially when I started to conclude that, oh, some of these couples are being chosen based on who the man is, that it was– that man suffered and has suffered in a different way. And I think, we all here at the table, Dan, Dave and I, we all recognize we have this protector type of personality. And to be put in a position where you can’t protect someone you love, that is going to the core of who we are as men.

Yeardley:  Right.

Paul:  And that’s, I think, why, when I start thinking about, what I experienced in trying to learn more about these men as well as interacting with them, it’s that I can so empathize with what they are internally battling and psychologically battling for the last 40 years from that moment. And the one man that broke down in front of me, he told me, “You do not go straight to my wife. You do not go straight to my daughter. You come through me.” What he’s doing is he’s protecting them.

Yeardley:  Exactly. “Let me try to do the thing I wasn’t able to do on the day,” you know?

Paul:  Exactly.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Dave:  Yeah, I get that.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Dan:  You also think about how many times these men have replayed the events that night and wondering, “How did I screw up and why wasn’t I able to protect her? I’m never going to let that happen again.” There are a million things that would go through your mind.

Paul:  Well, and this is where I’ve reassured a couple of them. I said, “You did the right thing under the circumstances because the men who did try to protect were killed,” and then the women were killed. I know. Like, my wife and I have talked about, “What would we do?” And I think that last Northern California attack, where the man gets up and confronts and the wife runs out, that’s really what you have to do. And if you can get at the guy before he’s got the drop on you, you at least have your loved one possibly surviving.

Dave:  Yeah. You’re trying to create some space and some time.

Paul:  Yep.

Dave:  Yeah. And we’re talking feet in seconds.

Paul:  Yes. And we’ve talked about this before. Never let yourself get bound. Never get bound. And just imagine a man’s at bed with a gun and a flashlight is shining in your eyes and you just woke up and it’s like, “What?” I mean, that fight or flight, that adrenaline rush, that fear that you’re going to have, “What to do, what to do. What to do.” Right?

Dan:  And I want to make it clear we’re not Monday morning quarterbacking at all.

Paul:  Yeah.

Dave:  You’re talking about the dynamics of a crime in progress, and how do you deal with this if you’ve never even thought it would happen to you? I mean, Paul, you, Dan, myself, I have game plan these types of things, but if you haven’t ever thought about it, like, and then you’re presented with it coming out of a deep sleep: “Now deal with this,” like, what would I do? You know, it’s that type of thing.

Yeardley:  And I would say, as law enforcement, you guys are all uniquely inoculated. Not completely impervious to, but to that stressor where somebody has surprised you and wants to hurt you. I think for most of us, even if you have a plan, but you haven’t had that kind of training, what happens actually in the moment, I think it’s just very different.

Dan:  Paul and I were talking last night. It’s a famous quote. But Paul says, “You know that old Mike Tyson quote?” “Everybody’s got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

Yeardley:  Exactly.

Paul:  One of the side effects of kids growing up in my house: my youngest daughter.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Paul:  She hung empty aluminum cans on her bedroom door so they would rattle anytime somebody opened her door.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Dan:  So, moving past, you know, DeAngelo’s now sentenced and now you’re retired. Where do you go from there?

Paul:  I end up just going home and I started to get a sense of what was about to happen when there is a woman sitting in a car basically surveilling my house.

Yeardley:  Oh.

Paul:  And turns out she was a producer who was working. I forget which entity she was working for, but they basically wanted to get an interview with me. Unbeknownst to me, people were tracking down my ex-wife to get in contact with me. I started to get a sense that this media attention was going to be pervasive. And it ended up being where I was getting up to 100 phone calls a day over those first few days after DeAngelo had been arrested. I was now just being interviewed left and right for all these major news centric shows like 48 Hours and 20/20 and then being filmed on documentaries about the Golden State Killer case and how DeAngelo’s caught.

 But also once it kind of got out, how we caught DeAngelo, now I became the poster child of the person who violated everybody’s privacy rights in the United States because of the use of this genetic genealogy. So, now I’m talking to the New York Times, talking to BuzzFeed, because they’re now writing articles and going, “Is this something we want here in the United States?” So, there’s a lot of pressure on me because of that in terms of I need to be able to convey what this genetic tool really is or this genealogy tool really is. So, people don’t think, as many often do, that somehow law enforcement is just going in and grabbing genetic information from innocent people that are in these databases. That’s not what’s happening.

 So, eventually, the stunning realization that my life had truly changed was I went to a true crime conference called CrimeCon, and this was in Nashville. First night, I went to dinner. As I’m walking through the hotel, a woman and her teenage daughter– I could tell that they were looking at me funny. And as they pass me, I hear the woman go, “Paul.” And I was like, “What?” I have two strangers never met before, and they’re recognizing who I am. And then the next day, I was walking towards the very first event, and two women were right next to me as I’m walking. And I heard one tell the other, “I hear Paul Holes is here.” And I was just going, “What the hell is going on? I am just a retired county employee. How do they know of me?”

 Well, it turns out kind of the confluence of events was there was a couple of documentaries on the unsolved Golden State Killer case that had aired roughly February, March, before we arrested DeAngelo. And then Michelle McNamara’s book had come out.

Yeardley:  And what was the title of that book?

Paul:  I’ll Be Gone in the Dark.

Yeardley:  Right.

Paul:  So, all these true crime consumers were basically getting inundated with Golden State Killer context. And of course, I’m a major presence within these documentaries and Michelle’s book and everything else. I just had no clue. And I remember an employee of mine when I was at the lab, and I was telling him about this unsolved East Area Rapist case, and he goes, “Oh, my God, you solved that. You’ll be famous.” And I was like, “Who solved Green River Killer? Who solved BTK?” “I’m just going to be an asterisk at the bottom of a Wikipedia page.” That’s really what I truly expected to happen. But I got swept up into this true crime genre. And then now you’re starting to see production companies and networks who put out true crime content, wanting to take advantage of my popularity.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Paul:  You know, and ended up just snowballing from there.

Yeardley:  And at some point, you got a #hotforholes.

Paul:  Oh, God. [laughter]

Yeardley:  How do you feel about that, Paul? [laughter]

Dan:  How does your family feel?

Yeardley:  Your kids are probably like, “Oh, please.”

Paul:  Yeah, no, there’s a lot of rolling the eyes in the household about that. I don’t pay attention to it. I’m aware of it.

Yeardley:  Of course.

Paul:  But then when you start to see prayer candles with your image on it, or there’s a placemat with my name on it, goofy stuff like that, it’s just, “Okay, I can’t control that.” That had a life of its own.

Yeardley:  Right.

Dave:  Well, I met you through those documentaries that came out before DeAngelo’s arrest. That’s how I became aware of you. And then we met in Washington, D.C. What I can say about before I met you and since I’ve learned that you are very humble about this stuff and that you always give credit to all the other people at all the different agencies that helped you along the way, it’s never about you. That’s what I always have appreciated and respected about you, Paul.

Paul:  It is important to recognize it was a team effort. And I think we’ve talked about this before with some of these older cases is I couldn’t have done what I did, or my team and the genealogy team couldn’t have done what we did without what the previous investigators, the previous forensic scientists had done on the case. They laid the foundation. I know what my contribution is in this case and I’m very proud of my role. But other people worked hard and also contributed in helping catch DeAngelo.

Yeardley:  Can you talk a little bit, Paul, about– you have this point of notoriety in your career that will go down in history. But I would say that anybody who’s in law enforcement or really a first responder, you guys have a job that is so purpose driven that you’re doing things that I always say most of us run from. You guys are going toward the danger. And so, when you retire– we were talking at dinner last night about how this huge vacuum is created. And I think it’s true. Anytime you do something that intensely, it’s the same for me on a much smaller scale. You’re in a production and then when that production ends, it literally, like, it’s over. There is no gradual tapering off of 14-hour days. It’s just now you can sleep in and you’re like, “Great. Oh God, now what do I do?”

 You know, we were talking about the consequence of doing something that’s so important and for you, 24 years long and has such a huge impact. This huge case gets solved and now there’s a silence that’s created. And how do you manage that?

Paul:  I would use the term void as how I felt it. It was just like I always had this case to go to and that void was real. That void was somewhat filled by how busy I was in the true crime space. And as much as I’ve gotten enjoyment out of working in the true crime space, it’s not the same as actually working the real case. So that’s where it was important for me to continue to work with law enforcement. And so that’s where I’ve always tried to maintain some level of case consultation, as well as doing this type of training at law enforcement conferences. It’s important for me to stay engaged just because that’s who I am. And now I am a forensic investigator with the genealogy company Othram. So, as I consult on cases, I’m able to link this incredible lab and what they’re doing to those investigators in order to see if we cannot advance the case or solve the case.

Yeardley:  I think it’s sort of interesting that as human beings, and particularly people who are really driven, I would say, like everybody at this table, that our inability to hang on to the success of really anything that we’ve done, but particularly something big like Dave, you put away so many predators; Dan, you solved so many crimes. And we associate you, Paul, with the Golden State Killer. But there are so many others that are on your resume, and yet how quickly that feeling of accomplishment evaporates.

Paul:  Yes. And I think I’m obviously very proud of my contribution to Golden State Killer, as well as other cases that got closed. But I’ve got so many that I didn’t have success in, and those stay with me. Some of them, I still have hard copies of the binders that I brought with me and are sitting on the bookshelf, by my computer. [Yeardley chuckles] Sometimes, I pull one out, going, “Ah, I need to do more on this one.” So there is a– you almost– it’s like being haunted by these ghosts from your past and to this day don’t know how to resolve that because there’s no way I’m going to be able to go back and work those cases in full, like I was trying to do during the course of my career.

Yeardley:  Right.

Dave:  Paul, I wanted to go back to the room where DeAngelo sat right after he’d been arrested. You said when he heard your name, he had a visceral reaction. He knew you were looking for him. We know he’s vindictive. Was there ever a fear that he would come after you?

Paul:  That was definitely a thought over the course of this investigation. And it wasn’t just my thought. Ken Clark and I also thought about this. Of any of these offenders, the Golden State Killer is one we agreed would possibly go after somebody that’s investigating him if he thought that he was about to be made. And this is where, in part, my wife and I had our plan in case somebody came into the room. And so, yeah, and a couple of my prime suspects that I was investigating, I would be laying awake at night going, “Is he going to come in? Is he going to try to get into my house?”

 Something I was not aware of until after DeAngelo was taken into custody is my wife told me she got a huge sense of relief because now she knew this person I was looking for wasn’t going to be able to come in and attack us.

Yeardley:  So, Sherry was relieved when DeAngelo was arrested.

Paul:  Yes. And Ken Clark’s wife, who’s also a sheriff’s deputy, also expressed that same sentiment.

Dave:  And for you and Ken to get that information from your wives, which they’ve been holding onto for perhaps decades.

Paul:  Yeah. Like with my wife Sherry, I bet for her, she probably wasn’t necessarily conscious that she was having this sense of dread, if you will, until all of a sudden, it was released after he got caught. After DeAngelo got caught.

Dave:  Understandable.

Yeardley:  That makes sense to me. So, Paul, DeAngelo is identified as the Golden State Killer. Your retirement is set. It’s imminent. So, what’s your last day of work like?

Paul:  The Monday before, I was formally retiring and going to fly out to New York. I was like, “This guy is definitely a prime suspect.” And anytime I have a prime suspect, I need to check out where they live. So, I, in the afternoon, drive up from Bay Area to Citrus Heights and park across the street from this DeAngelo’s house. [Yeardley laughs] And I know he’s home. The car’s in the driveway, and I’m looking, and I was just like, “What’s the likelihood he’s the guy?” And I just thought, you know, probably the last contribution I can make on this case is to go knock on the door, introduce myself and just say, “Hey, you know, your name came up in the investigation. I know you’re former law enforcement. You get it? If I can just get a DNA sample, I’ll eliminate you and you’ll never be contacted for this case again.”

 And I sat there and, well, he’s got a Bonnie. He’s got the firearms. He’s got the Visalia connection. You know, he had all of this going for him, and I was just like, “No, I can’t make that quick of a decision at this point in time.”

Dan:  Paul, I know you didn’t have experience doing patrol, but when you’re parked outside of DeAngelo’s house, you had the presence of mind not to go up and knock on his door alone.

Yeardley:  Yeah.

Paul:  Yeah, well, there’s so many missteps from an officer safety standpoint that I took. [Yeardley laughs] I think the first misstep was is that nobody knew where I was at.

Yeardley:  Oh.

Paul:  So, I literally, as I would do all the time, just took off to go do the investigation. And that day, I just took off to go up to DeAngelo’s house. So, I’m not hitting dispatch up and saying, “Hey, I’m en route to such and such.” I just went. And then parking out in front of his residence, I was right there. I didn’t park a block away or anything like that. I just parked right across the street. So, if he looked out, he would see an unmarked Ford Taurus that had a light bar in the windshield. [laughter]

Yeardley:  And didn’t DeAngelo sort of know what you looked like at that point?

Paul:  In all likelihood. Right.

Dave:  “That’s the guy who’s an expert on all my crimes.” [laughter]

 “How do you end up here?”

Paul:  So, I would say as I was sitting there, the temptation was just to go knock on the door and get a sample, just so we could see where this genealogy process had gotten us and not thinking, because I was still skeptical that he was the guy. After he pled guilty and then he admitted to the other crimes he couldn’t be charged with, we had sort of a little party with the prosecutors and investigators, and I was at the table talking about this, and then my bud, the FBI, Steve Kramer, who was part of the genealogy team, as I was retelling this, he was like, “Paul, if you had walked up to that front door, he would have shot you. He would have pulled you into the house, he would have pulled your car into his garage, and you would have just been disappeared.” And in hindsight, yeah, it was fortunate that as I just intellectually went through the case and what led me to DeAngelo, I just was like, “You know what? There’s enough here. I don’t want to blow it.” And that’s when I put the shift into drive and drove home. And that was the last thing I did as a law enforcement officer. So, there was just that I knew the case enough, and I had so much experience working other suspects that it was like, I have all the circumstantial stuff with DeAngelo, but I also had the DNA that led me to him.

 But from an officer safety standpoint, I made poor decisions. [laughter]

Dave:  The guy hadn’t killed for a couple decades.

Yeardley:  Come on. He was out of practice.

Paul:  [laughs] And so ultimately, I drove home, and the next day, I am having to go to the FBI office to be debriefed and turn in my FBI creds and my ID and then had to turn in my badge and gun to the lieutenant handling that. And I had a junior investigator drive me home, and that was my last day at work.

Yeardley:  Oh, my God, Paul, I am so glad you didn’t go up and knock on his front door, because I do not think he would have invited you in for tea. [Paul laughs] So, I don’t know how to wrap up a series like this. Basically, thanks for sharing your life’s work with us, Paul, and really only a fraction of it, but a significant piece of it.

Dan:  Incredible work. Basically stuffing 24 years into eight hours. You know, it’s a fascinating case. And the fact that you stuck with it and what it means to all those victims is really what strikes me, could have just been forgotten, and it wasn’t. People like you and Steve Kramer and Anne Marie and everybody that worked on this case, you guys just wouldn’t let it disappear.

Paul:  You know, you’re bringing up some names, and there’s other names. Ken Clark, Larry Poole, Larry Montgomery. There were some very persistent investigators that really cared for the victims, and the public had no idea that this case was still being pursued. And then, fortunately, we found out about each other and we were able to join forces.

Yeardley:  Yeah, that’s amazing.

Dave:  Yeah. My takeaway is the commitment, dedication piece that law enforcement and others that assisted law enforcement demonstrated for decades. Strength of victims and their families. Like having to deal with revisiting this when a new lead comes out or a news article comes out, and it just reopens everything. There is so many aspects to it. The prosecution, and you’ve been very humble and named a lot of people who contributed to this, and it’s kind of what I expect out of you, Paul. You’re just a good person, and it’s a pleasure to work with you and learn from you.

Paul:  Well, thank you, Dave.

Yeardley:  I am just enormously grateful for your attention to detail and your vulnerability and your generosity in sharing what this investigation meant to you, what it took from you, what you had to pour into it, and it’s why we love you.

Paul:  Oh, Yeardley. When we first started recording this on the Golden State Killer, I mentioned, “I have never done the Golden State Killer in a podcast format like this before,” and there isn’t a better podcast for this. And I think it’s not only because you guys are so great to work with, and Dan and Dave’s expertise in weighing in is huge. But it’s also the listeners that this podcast has, knowing that we do have a fair number of those in or formerly from law enforcement. But I have to say, this podcast for me is a passion and I love all you guys too.

Yeardley:  Thank you so much.

[music]

 That was the final episode of Chasing the Golden State Killer with Paul Holes, a special 10-part limited series from the team that brings you Small Town Dicks. Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you back here next week for the premiere of Small Town Dicks season 19.

 Small Town Dicks presents Chasing the Golden State Killer with Paul Holes is an Audio 99 production. It’s written by Paul Holes and features Detective Dan, Detective Dave and me, Yeardley Smith. The series is produced by Jessica Halstead and Monika Scott, executive produced by Ben Cornwell and me, edited by Katie McMurran and Soren Begin with additional editing by Cristina Bracamontes, sound supervision by Logan Heftel, design and social media by Andrew Polk. The theme music is composed by Logan Heftel.

 If you’d like to support the making of this podcast, please go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button. Also, you can stream all episodes at smalltowndicks.com/goldenstatekiller. From all of us at Audio 99, thank you. Thank you for listening.

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