Paul:  Hey, Small Town Fam. This is Paul Holes. Make sure you subscribe to The Briefing Room with Detectives Dan and Dave. Season 2 is out now. Subscribe now. And thanks.

Scott:  Stan felt like this is an accident scene. The hair on the back of my neck standing up, I remember thinking, “There’s something to this. This is more than a fall injury.”

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Yeardley:  I’m Yeardley.

Zibby:  And I’m Zibby. And we’re fascinated by true crime.

Yeardley:  So, we invited our friends, Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby:  To sit down with us and share their most interesting cases.

Dan:  I’m Dan.

Dave:  And I’m Dave.

Dan:  We’re identical twins.

Dave:  And we’re detectives in Small Town, USA.

Dan:  Dave investigates sex crimes and child abuse. 

Dave: ] Dan investigates violent crimes. And together, we’ve worked on hundreds of cases including assaults, robberies, murders, burglaries, sex abuse and child abuse.

Dan:  Names, places and certain details including relationships have been altered to protect the privacy of the victims and their families.

Dave:  Though we realize that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we hope you’ll join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved out of respect for what they’ve been through. Thank you.

[music]

Yeardley:  Today on Small Town Dicks, we have the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Dan:  Present.

Yeardley:  But we don’t actually have Detective Dave, because he’s off fighting crime in Small Town, USA. But we are thrilled to have a fan favorite, Lieutenant Scott, back with us.

Scott:  Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Yeardley:  We’re so happy you’re here.

Zibby:  So, Lieutenant Scott, you brought us a murder case today. Tell us how this case came to you.

Scott:  So, it was 1997, and I was a detective in the Violent Crimes Unit. I was a relatively new detective. I’d been a police officer for 12 years, and then I got assigned to be a detective in this Violent Crimes Unit. And so, as the title suggests, it was robbery, homicide, sex crimes, that kind of thing. So, I had just been in that unit for about a year when this case occurred. And so, the victim, an 83-year-old man, was discovered in his home by his son.

Yeardley:  What was the victim’s name?

Scott:  Murray. And Murray lived alone. He was suffering from dementia. He fell often, and he was in relatively poor health. He didn’t hear very well. And so, his adult son checked on him with some routine and discovered him after not having heard from him for most of the day.

Yeardley:  And what was the son’s name?

Scott:  The son’s name was Paul. And so, Paul lived close by. Murray was living in the home that Paul had grown up in. It was in an area in the south hills of our town. It was a bungalow style home, and it was a split-level home. So, when you came into the main doorway, you could either go downstairs or go upstairs, a short landing, and you would be up in the living area with the living room kitchen. There was a bedroom that Murray utilized at the end of the hallway.

 He didn’t go downstairs very often. In fact, if somebody came to the house, many times he would go out to the balcony on his level rather than going to the door. So, if somebody knocked, for instance, and heard it, that was sometimes how he would respond to the front door.

Yeardley:  I see.

Zibby:  And how did Paul discover his father?

Scott:  So, Paul hadn’t heard from Murray. And so, he went to check on him. He described entering the residence, and he noticed that there was blood in the kitchen. He saw blood on the wall that led from the kitchen living room area to the bedroom area, smudged as if somebody had transferred blood, either from hands or arms or something on the wall. Initially, Paul’s thought was dad fell again, because he had a history of falling. But he followed this blood trail down the hallway. Then he found his father laying in his bed. I recall when we got there, his arms were folded. There was a bedroom fan going, and it looked like he had died in his bed in that sleeping position.

Yeardley:  He was lying on his back, and his arms were folded across his–?

Scott:  Yeah, kind of across his chest. And so, he calls 911, and that prompts the response initially by patrol. When they get there, they see parts of that scene that seem suspicious. You can’t really tell from looking at it what exactly you have. And so, as part of the normal protocol, that patrol officer contacted the supervisor for the Violent Crimes Unit, and then that supervisor activated the whole team. And so, I was part of that team response.

Yeardley:  Other than the blood on the wall, were there other things that seemed suspicious about the scene?

Scott:  Well, there was a pool of blood, a lot of droplets of blood, a phone book that was open and bled upon. There was a stool in the middle of the kitchen area between the sink and the bar counter area. And it was situated under a ceiling light. And the ceiling light cover was off and on the counter.

Zibby:  What? That seems strange, know?

Scott:  Paul said that Murray had been a handyman, kind of a fellow, and so it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for Murray to see a light bulb burn out and just climb up and fix it.

Yeardley:  But he’s 83 years.

Scott:  Yeah. So, he had no business doing that. But he said, “That didn’t stop my dad.”

Zibby:  When he was found by Paul, and then subsequently, you guys, could you tell from Murray’s position on the bed where the blood had come from at least?

Scott:  That’s a good question. And as I recall, on scrutinized observation at the scene, you could tell that it looked like he had a pretty large laceration on the back of his head. So, you couldn’t necessarily see it, but you could see there was a large accumulation of blood in the pillow behind his head. And so, most of the other blood was on his hands. There was dry blood on his shirt, on his arms and his face. So, you couldn’t necessarily see the wound, but it was pretty clear that it was in the back of his head.

Yeardley:  How long had he been dead?

Scott:  We figured it had been under 12 hours. So, relatively fresh in the crime scene world.

Zibby:  Where do you begin to try and figure out whether or not this is indeed a homicide?

Scott:  So, we started looking at what the scene is telling us, so to speak, what the evidence is suggesting, blood droplets, blood smear, apparent or evident or possible mechanisms of injury, anything that might be out of place or looks like it’s missing. And nothing was really standing out as being missing. It wasn’t really evident that you had a definite crime scene that turned homicide, like a robbery, for instance, that turned murder.

Yeardley:  No forced entry?

Scott:  No apparent forced entry. When Paul came in, he indicated that the door had been locked.

Yeardley:  Okay.

Scott:  The downstairs was always kept locked up, because he just didn’t go there. But they made sure all the windows and things were locked. So, again, as I mentioned, I’m the junior detective. We had a cadre of relatively experienced investigators, and the supervisor was very experienced. We had one investigator on the team who had been involved in violent crimes for years. In his mind, he was intended to be a homicide investigator. So, anything less than that, he seemed not to really have time for it, because he should be saved for the big game.

Zibby:  Oh, come on.

Yeardley:  Oh, wow.

Scott:  I think every investigative unit has somebody like that to some extent or another.

Dan:  I won’t comment on that.

[laughter]

Yeardley:  And what was this experienced investigator’s name?

Scott:  Stan. This guy pretty much let everybody know he was the man. Stan, the Man.

[laughter]

Scott:  So as a new investigator, you’re a sponge. So, you’re trying to learn from everybody in that unit. And in my opinion, it was an honor to be a part of that team. I felt like their work was really fascinating. It was the kind of work I had aspired to do. And I’d worked long and hard, like 12 years, and I felt like I’m ready. And so, he came into the crime scene, and he began describing what he’s seeing and what it means. And I noticed that the boss paid pretty close attention to him and did treat him the way he wanted to be regarded.

Yeardley:  Why?

Scott:  I think in some cases, and probably in many cases, to give Stan the benefit of the doubt, he had been correct. But as I would later learn through the course of my career, if you have a preconception about what the outcome is going to be, you tend to eliminate other evidence and factors that don’t fit into your puzzle. There was a peculiar crime scene marking that was kind of inexplicable.

Yeardley and Zibby:  Oh.

Scott:  In the living room, there was about a two-inch diameter round hole in the sheet rock that was relatively fresh. And you can tell it was relatively fresh, because sheetrock is sort of a composite, chalky substance. It’s pretty fragile. It’ll break through without a whole lot of effort.

Yeardley:  So, this hole was through one of the walls?

Scott:  Yes. This house had like 10-foot ceilings. It was about a foot down from the ceiling level, just around about two-inch hole. And there was debris that had dropped on the baseboard. It seemed like it was maybe somehow involved in the scene. But Stan just regarded that as anomalous, and it has nothing to do with the actual scene.

Zibby:  In the movie version of this story, that’s when we, as the audience, are all thinking, “Yeah, of course it’s related.”

Yeardley:  Duh.

Scott:  Well, right. But Stan felt like this is an accident scene.

Yeardley:  Oh.

Scott:  The reason is that we noticed there was an accumulation of blood on the carpet in the living room in front of the television set. Just a little bit. And then there were droplets that seemed to lead into the kitchen. And then again, I described that there was a stool and a large puddle of blood underneath this light fixture that looked like it had been taken down. It was set on the counter. There was a light bolt that had been taken out of the light fixture and was in that light fixture cover. There were screws that were laying there. So, it looked like somebody was in the process of fixing that light.

 There’s sharp counter edges, and there’s blood around in the kitchen droplets. There’s a phone book that is open to pages that didn’t appear to really be significant. It didn’t look like he was trying to call emergency help or anything, but there was blood all over the phone and the phone book. A really strange scene, especially since he’s found in the bedroom. There’s transfer on the wall, but it doesn’t look like struggle transfer. And we noticed that Murray had some blood accumulated on his right shoulder. It was consistent at the same height as where maybe Murray’s shoulder would have rubbed that wall as he was maybe making his way to his room.

 And so, that was Stan’s conclusion was that the hole that I described is anomalous. It has nothing to do with the crime scene, and that Murray had fallen while he was working on this light bulb. He had become confused and tried to call for help. The phone was bloody. The phone book was there. And then he made his way back down the hallway and probably laid down. He doesn’t realize how badly he’s injured, and he died, bled to death.

Zibby:  So, that is Stan’s theory.

Scott:  That’s Stan’s theory. So, because Stan had assessed this as being a natural death scene or an accidental death, it was given to the junior varsity.

Yeardley:  Scott is raising his hand for those who can’t see. [Scott [laughs]

Scott:  Me. And so, I was excited, because I felt like there was more to it. I remember thinking, “There’s something more to this, and I think it deserves to be given a lot more attention.” I can’t speak for Jeff, but I remember the hair on the back of my neck standing up, and I remember thinking, “There’s something to this. This is more than a fall injury.”

Dan:  After Stan and the rest of the A team leave, probably some comfort to you with you and Jeff, where you guys can really dig into this now and you don’t have to worry about these prying eyes looking over at you like you’re wasting your time?

Scott:  Yeah. That’s a good observation. That’s true.

Dan:  I’ve been in a situation like that where you show up to a death investigation, and there’s another patrol officer there. What’s making the hair on my neck stand up isn’t even on this guy’s radar over here, and he’s saying, “You’re wasting your time. This is a natural death.” Our job is to scrutinize a scene and ask a lot of questions and investigate. You got to find reasons and ways to corroborate why you’re feeling the way you are.

Scott:  Yeah. There’s this sort of experience dilemma. And I think what happens and you have to guard against is having experience influence your ability to see things in a transparent way.

Yeardley:  Sure. See stuff with fresh eyes, even, right?

Scott:  Right. It’s a real factor that is alive probably in a lot of professions, I think. I can imagine in the medical field, you have that same sort of component where you’re reluctant to raise your hand and go, “Did you see the hole in the wall?”

Yeardley:  Right.

Zibby:  [chuckles]

Scott:  Because I think if you really, truly care and you treat these families like they were yours, I think you pay a lot more attention to detail, and you are less vulnerable to being dismissive of a situation like this. So, I’ve set this up pretty well. Obviously, Stan missed something.

[Break 1]

Yeardley:  So, now that you and Jeff have a hold of the crime scene, where do you guys start?

Scott:  Well, I should mention, inside the door at Murray’s house. On the inside of the front door, there was a note that was taped to the door, so that if you’re on the inside of the house, it’s like a reminder. We noticed that Paul had written notes for his dad as reminders, because he was having some dementia. But this was a warning to Murray that Paul, we later found out, had written. And it basically said, “If Patricia comes to the door, don’t answer. Call 911.”

Yeardley:  Do we know who this Patricia is?

Scott: [00:1:01] Yes. Patricia would be Paul’s daughter. So, Murray’s granddaughter. She’s an adopted girl. She was 14 years at the time. And she’s African-American for the sake of discussion. Murray and Paul are white. And I mentioned that because it becomes more material later. But at any rate, she’s no stranger to trouble.

Zibby:  In what way? The fact that Paul had to leave a note for his father to remind him not to let her in and call the police if she came around makes it sound pretty bad.

Scott:  She had a history we found of breaking into the house downstairs. So, she was living on the streets,

Yeardley:  What? At 14 years?

Scott:  Yeah. So, she’s a runaway. She’d been in trouble and had stolen grandpa’s car. So, she had stolen Murray’s car at one point in time. And I think it was a trail of smaller incidents and theft of the vehicles more significant. We learned from Paul that while she was living on the street, she knew that Murray, grandfather, was vulnerable and that he didn’t go downstairs. And she knew the house, so she knew where the vulnerabilities are in the windows and stuff, and she figured out ways in. And so, she would go in and shower and clean and quietly leave. Sometimes she’d bring friends, and she described that they would go up and they would steal grandpa’s tequila, and they’d party. And they’d take things, items from downstairs and then they’d sell that stuff for money. And so, the family pressed charges, I think probably hoping to get her some legal attention and help. And it sounded like Paul and the family was at wits end.

Yeardley:  Oh, wow. They pressed charges for stealing her grandfather’s car?

Scott:  Yes. And after she was charged, she had some court sanction and they sent her to a court ordered, structured environment.

Zibby:  Like a kind of military type academy?

Yeardley:  Yes.

Zibby:  And she was placed there to live for a while in order to rehabilitate her ways, so to speak?

Scott:  Exactly.

Yeardley:  When she sent away to this facility, that’s extremely structured, is it for the whole school year? Is that the presumption, or do you go for just a month at a time or a couple of months at a time?

Scott:  In my recollection is that it was court ordered. So, it was a long-term thing. So, it was going to be a number of months.

Yeardley:  Okay.

Scott:  And she had a trail of trouble that got her to there. But she had been placed over there, and she, we discovered, had run away just days before. This is an onion that I started to peel with my partner, Jeff, after Stan and the rest of the crew had gone away. Anyway, Jeff and I decided that we needed to try to find Patricia.

Yeardley:  But if you know Patricia’s run away from this disciplinary facility, how do you even attempt to find her?

Scott:  We put this, what’s called an attempt to locate on Patricia. She had a criminal record. So, we can flag it in a way on the computer, so that if any law enforcement in the area has contact with her, we as investigators would be notified. And so, my partner and I were both listed as points of contact. And in the evening of July 5^th, so later that evening, she was contacted.

Zibby:  What?

Dan:  it doesn’t surprise me.

Scott:  In our town, we had an open-air downtown mall. And that was a location where kids, troubled kids, would congregate. So, Patricia was contacted by the downtown mall security, who reported their contact with her to our officers. And then they discovered this attempt to locate that we had put out.

Zibby:  Was she trying to shoplift or what?

Scott:  She was down there after curfew, actually. It was a curfew violation.

Zibby:  City curfew.

Scott:  Yeah.

Zibby:  Okay.

Scott:  So, I think it’s between the hours at 10:00 PM and 06:00 AM. And so, at that point in time, the curfew component was alive and well, and that was a reason that security and law enforcement, who would use to contact people. Many times, you’d identify runaways that way and get them back home. Anyway, Jeff and I were notified, and we responded and had the patrol officer transport her to our city hall. She happened to have an arrest warrant for leaving that court placement in the center of the state. So, she had a warrant for her arrest.

Yeardley:  To be returned there?

Scott:  Yes. So, she was taken into custody, and we were notified, and so we met her at the station. Jeff and I talked with her just generally about what she’s been doing, where she’s been. We started directing the conversation towards her grandfather and what was going on at the house. And so, little by little, she started to share information about what happened that night.

Zibby:  Really?

Scott:  Yeah.

Zibby:  So, she was indeed at her grandfather’s house the day before. When you started in with her, did you say, “We’re investigating the death of your grandfather, or did you start soft and then give away at some point within the conversation that he was dead?”

Scott:  Yeah, we did just that, the latter. We started soft with her, asked her about the house, and how she visits and when was the last time she was there. She talked about these two boys, Dwayne and Chris, that she had been hanging out with.

Yeardley:  Also, homeless kids?

Scott:  Also, yeah, runaway kids. So, they were on the street also.

Zibby:  Was she revealing Dwayne and Chris to be her pals who were with her on the day in question?

Scott:  Yeah. So, she talked about on the 4th of July, which when you’re dealing with a criminal incident, a holiday is always a good way to draw somebody’s attention to the day in question, rather than saying, “What were you doing last Thursday?” It’s like, “What were you doing on the 4th of July?” And of course, we’re only a day away from the incident. But regardless, it’s a memorable date, especially for a kid. So, she described that she and these two boys had gone to the house she had shared with Dwayne and Chris that her grandfather was vulnerable, and talked about that he doesn’t hear well, and he doesn’t go downstairs and we can get stuff. They were interested in stealing and getting money. And she came up with a plan of all you got to do is go to the front door and knock and ask him if you can do some yard work or wash his car, and he’ll give you money.

Zibby:  And she’s confessing all of this up front? Does she know her grandfather is dead at this point?

Scott:  It’s a great question. No, she doesn’t.

Zibby:  Okay. Is she nervous?

Scott:  I think she’s nervous. There’s a recording of the conversation. And we ask her, “What happened?” And she just starts talking so fast.

 So, we talked about your grandfather’s house July 4th. Can you tell me, best of your recollection, what time you guys got over to your grandfather’s house the first time?

Patricia:  Early afternoon, when it was really, really, really hot.

Scott:  Okay. And who was with you when you guys went over the first time? [beep] Okay. And what happened the first time?

Patricia:  Derek went up to the front door. Yes, I got a [unintelligible  yard work for some money, and my parents didn’t have any yard work to do, but he gave me $5, [beep] and I came back, and he was like, “I didn’t have anyone.” So, he gave me a $5, and he didn’t even have to do any yard work.” He’s like, “And I should have asked him for a $10.” Then I was like, “All false stuff.” It’s like, I’ll collect it later and see if we can get in, so I can take a shower. Went down to the [unintelligible  and bought some burritos and donuts, Powerade or [unintelligible  or whatever it is that [unintelligible  likes to drink.

Scott:  Okay. Maybe just for clarification, it might better for me to ask some questions, since we’ve already talked about this. I think it’ll be less confusing and maybe it’ll go a little bit slower. We cover real thoroughly if I ask you questions and-

Patricia:  Okay

Scott:  -we talk about–

 Because she was trying to tell me the whole story really quickly. And I think what that tells you as an investigator is she wants to talk about it. It’s bothering her. As soon as you ask the right question, I’m going to start talking.

Yeardley:  She just mumbles her way through that, doesn’t she?

Zibby:  Yeah. I don’t understand what she’s saying.

Scott:  Right. Okay, so she and Dwayne hide, and they send Chris up. And Chris knocks on the door, and Murray finally answers. They have a conversation about that topic of, “I’ll do some work for some cash.” And Murray takes his wallet out of his pocket and hands him $5 and then the boy goes away. And so, what Patricia says later is that Chris and Dwayne and her joined up, and they walked to a store nearby and they bought donuts and Gatorade and candy stuff. And then they sat and talked about the fact that Chris observed that Murray had more money in his wallet.

Scott:  So, you went back to the house. Did anybody go to the door again when he got there the second time?

Patricia:  [beep] went to the door, because he was going to see if my grandpa was home. My grandpa wasn’t home. Then we wouldn’t have to be as quiet trying to get in the windows or whatever. So, he went up and he knocked on the door. And then I heard him knock again. He was going to tell him that he had to say thank you or something, just add something to say if he was there. And I heard him talking, I guess he said he talked to my grandpa, but he didn’t come to the door. So, I’m thinking. I’m just assuming that he went to the balcony or whatever.

Scott:  Okay. So, the excuse that [beep] was using to go back the second time was if he actually answered the door, he was just going to say, “Hey, I wanted to say thank you for giving me the $5 or even earlier.” And did he use it earlier I want to back up a little bit? Because I seem to remember [beep] told your grandfather some excuse about why.

Patricia:  He wanted to go to the mall with his friends.

Scott:  Okay. And so, they were going house to house, trying to collect some money to go to the mall.

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. So, anyway, back to this second trip that we’re on now. He apparently has some conversation with your grandfather.

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  And your grandfather, you think might have been on the balcony, talking down to him from the balcony. Okay.

Patricia:  That’s what I’m thinking. Because I would have heard the front door, when it was closed, I didn’t hear the front door opening.

Scott:  Okay. So, then what happened next?

Patricia:  So, then[beep]came back around the backside of the house. [unintelligible  couldn’t get none of the doors open or nothing like that.

Scott:  Okay. So, did you guys try to open doors and windows?

Patricia:  We tried open everything except the window that’s like on. There’s the driveway, and then goes into the backyard, there’s a window right there. That’s the only window we didn’t try. We tried all the ones on the backside.

Scott:  Okay. And is there a bathroom and two bedrooms on the–?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. And so, did you have to take the screens off?

Patricia:  Screens are already off.

Scott:  Okay. Screens are already off, all the windows on the backside?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  And so, how did you try to get into the windows?

Patricia:  Tried to push them open.

Scott:  Okay. Just with your hands just to see if they were locked? And was there any sliding glass doors that you tried to open?

Patricia:  Yeah. We tried to open the sliding glass door.

Scott:  Okay. And how’d you try to open that?

Patricia:  Just tried to open it. Tried to push it. Tried to push it in and pull it up and see if the lock would come off. Tried to use some wire, but the wire was too big and [beep] said we needed smaller wire to do it.

Scott:  Okay. And where [beep] get the wire that he was using?

Patricia:  I don’t know. I think he broke it off. That’s the kind of wire that was expensive wire.

Scott:  Okay. And how long of a piece of wire was it?

Patricia:  Five, seven or so inches. Eight is the biggest, five is the smallest.

Scott:  Okay. And so, he was trying to jimmy the window open with this piece of wire. Did you eventually give up on trying to get in?

Patricia:  Yeah. Because it was not working. Then we heard the phone rang, and I was like, “Oh, God, over” I was still for sure it was the neighbors calling to say that they seen people around the house. And I was like, “I’m out here, because I’m not about to get caught.” So, I was like, “Come on.” So, I was like, “I don’t want to go out the front. The neighbors are calling, saying the people around the house.” And I was like, “Then my grandpa will be out looking. Then if he sees me, he’ll call the cop. Let’s go through this back way.” [beep] Yeah. And I don’t want to go back out there, because then the neighbors will see me, and I’ll be thinking, it’s weird that if I was in the front of the house and then I was in the back of the house, and then I was back up in the front of the house, they’d probably think I was trying to break it in. We asked me if I knew any backways to get out, and I was like, “Yeah.” So, we went out the backway.

Zibby:  So, she’s saying they went back. They were unsuccessful at getting Murray to answer the door. They tried to break into the bottom half of the house were unsuccessful at that too, so they left.

Scott:  Right.

 Have you seen them since that night?

Patricia:  Saw them last night. They were down on [beep] buying a 20 sack.

Scott:  Okay. Buying a 20 sack-

Patricia:  Of weed.

Scott:  -of weed. Okay, so $20 bag of marijuana?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. Is that usual for those guys to have cash?

Patricia:  No, because they’re jacking something, car hopping, jacking cell phones and selling them or something.

Scott:  Okay. Did they ask you or did you tell them about what kind of property they might be able to get inside of your grandfather’s house?

Patricia:  Yeah. I said there’s some bases and Christmas sets and stuff downstairs, or they might be able to find an old radio or something.

Scott:  Okay. And you would have been okay with them going into the lower half as long as they didn’t go upstairs?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  What’s your concern about them going upstairs?

Patricia:  I wouldn’t want my grandfather or anybody there. I wouldn’t want anybody to be [unintelligible . As soon as when you there, he’d think there was me or my friends or something. And he’d call my dad and be like, “There were people in my house.” And then kids probably break out, and run and just be all crazy because me, when my grandpa shows up, I just leave. I’m like, gone. But they’d probably be like, “Wouldn’t know what to say to him.” Probably be like, “Oh, yeah, [beep] we’re friends. We’re here.” Then I could be like calling the cops, being like, [beep] you.

Scott:  What do you think your grandfather would do if he encountered some strangers in his house?

Patricia:  He’d ask them, “What they were doing and who they were.”

Scott:  Do you think from what you know, your grandfather, would he yell at him or would he–?

Patricia:  He might yell at him, but not unless they yelled at him or gave him a smart answer. Didn’t answer him at all or something. Usually, he thinks that you’re probably supposed to be there.

Yeardley:  And at this point, Patricia still doesn’t know that her grandfather is dead.

Scott:  Correct.

Zibby:  And even though you have a hunch that it’s a homicide, assuming she’s telling the truth here, then Stan’s theory could still hold up, right? Like, the kids came by once, they got $5. They came by a second time to get more money from Murray. But he didn’t come to the door. They unsuccessfully tried to break in, they left, and Murray went back to fixing the light or something fell and hit his head on his own.

Dan:  I just want to ask you. It happens on July 4th. You guys discover Murray on the 5th, correct?

Scott:  Yes.

Dan:  Had there been an autopsy yet, or had you at least had time to examine Murray’s body before you talked to Patricia?

Scott:  There’s an examination done.

Dan:  At the scene?

Scott:  At the scene. And then my recollection is the autopsy occurs, like, day later. But we were able to examine the wound.

Dan:  And when you’re looking at this wound, are you more likely than not saying this is going to be a homicide or the mechanism of injury could be an accident still?

Scott:  It’s very clear that it’s a single blow from a blunt object. There’s skull fracture. And so, just examining the wound, you can tell that he was killed by this blow.

Dan:  And you’ve got no other object in this kitchen where this stool is, that could possibly be the object that he struck his head with.

Scott:  Exactly. Injury from a fall looks a lot different than an injury from an object. When you’re talking about blunt force to the head, it’s always going to look a lot different. And an autopsy, you reveal the skull and you can tell the damage and the fractures. And in this case, there were displaced fragments of skull. So, he was hit hard.

Dan:  Single blow?

Scott:  Single blow. Yeah.

[Break 2]

Yeardley:  At this point in the interview with Patricia, the detectives have gotten what she claims is the complete story.

Scott:  Okay, that concludes the tape recorder statement regarding case number [beep] and the statement was from [beep] It is now 11:00 PM, July 6th.

Yeardley:  But Detective Scott and his partner Jeff knew that Murray was struck with a blunt object. And their feeling is Patricia’s story has more than what she’s sharing.

Scott:  We finally disclose to her that her grandfather was dead.

Yeardley:  Once they tell her that, Patricia begins to divulge more.

Scott:  We’re back on tape, still in the same interview room here at city hall. It’s 11:25 PM. Still talking with [beep] regarding case number [beep]. You still understand that you had the right to remain silent.

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Like, we talked about earlier, your Miranda rights. Would you like me to read them to you again?

Patricia:  I got it them right.

Scott:  Oh, yeah. Okay. Earlier when we were talking about the situation at your grandfather’s house, we did not specifically talk about the fact that your grandfather’s dead. And when we got done talking on this on the tape recorder earlier, I notified you that your grandfather was dead. You told me that you wanted to tell me some more things, correct?

Patricia:  Yes.

Scott:  Okay. Can you tell me slowly? And as you remember it, what happened that second time when you visited your grandfather’s house that you didn’t tell us earlier?

Patricia:  Yeah. I went in through his bedroom sliding glass door, and went downstairs and opened the downstairs sliding glass door, and then we left and came back around and [beep] came up the front and me and [beep] came up through the back. We didn’t want the neighbor to see us go up to the house. And we came in through the back and we went in through the side glass door and was supposed to go talk to my grandpa. And then while he was talking to him at the door, [beep] I was going to take his wallet out of his back pocket, and then we were going to leave. But my grandpa went to the patio doors, but not the front door.

 And so, [beep] came around the back, and we were all three in the house. And then I was looking for stuff downstairs to sell. And they said they wanted to see the guns that were up in his room. So, they went upstairs. I heard noises in his room, like the closet doors and stuff. And then it was like 15 minutes, probably and then they came running down the stairs, and they’re like, “We got to go. We got some money, but I think your grandpa’s going to call the police.” So, we took off out the back door and went the back way down to, [beep] like I said before, up over the water park and down to [beep] park.

Scott:  Okay. So, when you were at his house, at your grandfather’s house during the second visit, can you explain how you got into the house?

Patricia:  I went up the front stairs, and got up on the railing, and climbed up to the balcony and went through his sliding glass door in his room.

Scott:  Into his bedroom?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Was his sliding glass door open?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. And when you came into your grandfather’s bedroom, did you see your grandfather?

Patricia:  He was sitting in the living room on his gray chair that he always watches TV in.

Scott:  Okay. So, he was facing the television in the living room?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. And so, how did you get downstairs?

Patricia:  I just crouched low, so I wouldn’t be seen in the mirror and just walked really quick.

Scott:  Okay. And you went downstairs?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Downstairs to, there’s a bathroom and a couple of bedrooms, like a family room?

Patricia:  Yeah, the living room downstairs.

Scott:  Okay. And then how did you let [beep, beep] in?

Patricia:  I opened up the curtains and opened the sliding glass door. I just left [beep]

Scott:  [beep] Where was he?

Patricia:  He came up through the front, and he went to talk to my grandfather. He came up the street, but me and [beep] came in the back, because I didn’t want the neighbors to see me.

Scott:  Okay.

Patricia:  And he went up on the street and he went up and go talk to him.

Scott:  Okay. And so, why didn’t you want the neighbors to see it?

Patricia:  Because the neighbors know who I am, and they know I stole my grandpa’s car before. And all the cops told me to call the cops if they see me around my grandpa’s house.

Scott:  Okay. And so, you let [beep] in?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  And how did [beep] get inside the house?

Patricia:  After he talked to my grandpa, he came around the back.

Scott:  Okay. So, he talked to your grandpa below the balcony and was supposed to distract your grandfather?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. And then after they got done talking, he came around the back and came in through the slider?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  The ground level slider? So, did you guys talk about having a plan when you went inside?

Patricia:  We were just going to go inside, [beep] was going to talk to him. He was supposed to open the front door to talk to [beep]. So, [beep] he grabbed his wallet out of his back pocket, and then we were going to run. And that was a plan, but it didn’t work because we didn’t go to the front door.

Scott:  [unintelligible

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  Okay

Patricia:  So, then I was just like, “Okay, well, let’s just find some stuff to sell and leave.” And I was like– and he’s like [beep] he’s like doing something, you think you can sneak up and take the wallet without him hearing you or noticing you, then that’s fine.” He’s old to know to figure. He took the wallet out, took the money out, left the wallet, like left quick enough, you wouldn’t be able to call the cops in time to catch it. That’s what I was thinking.

Scott:  Okay. And so, [beep] came downstairs. When he came inside, what was the plan when you guys were all downstairs in that big family–? [crosstalk]

Patricia:  We were going to get some stuff to sell it.

Scott:  Okay. Did you plan on just staying downstairs or–?

Patricia:  Yeah, that’s what I planned on. But then they were like, “Well, I want to go see the guns because I told him about that my grandpa had guns.” But I didn’t think he had them anymore. He had a 12 gauge in his closet. But I thought my dad took it, because my dad didn’t want to accidentally shoot my little sister or something with that. But they said they wanted to go upstairs and check and see if he had a gun, and they wanted to get a shirt or something, like some pants or something like that sell to some guy downtown.

Scott:  Okay. So, you stayed downstairs and they went upstairs?

Patricia:  Yeah.

Scott:  What did you downstairs while they went upstairs?

Patricia:  I looked around for stuff to sell. I couldn’t find anything.

Scott:  At the time that they came into the house, once they got inside the house downstairs, the boys formulated this plan of, “Let’s go up and see what we can find to steal.” Patricia tried to separate herself from it and again said, “Well, show me what you take, because I don’t want to take anything that has sentimental value.” But I think she had pretty well liberated all the valuables from downstairs over the months that preceded this incident.

 And so, the boys went upstairs, and Patricia described hearing noises. She could tell that the boys were in the closet in Murray’s bedroom area. So, it was above where she was downstairs. The boys talked about firearms, because Patricia had said that grandpa had guns. I think they were looking for things of significant value that they could convert quickly.

Yeardley:  Did you ever say how old those boys are?

Scott:  I didn’t. And that’s a key point in this case. So, Dwayne was 15 years, and Chris was 14 years and Patricia 14 years.

Zibby:  That is so young.

Scott:  Very young.

Scott:  What did you hear while you were downstairs?

Patricia:  I’m just standing in the closet and I’m whispering.

Scott:  Could you tell where they moved from there? You’re familiar with the house, right?

Patricia:  Towards the living room more. Towards the living room. But it wasn’t in the kitchen, because the kitchen is what’s over the room in the back that I was in and there wasn’t nobody in there.

Scott:  But you could hear him moving around upstairs, did you hear any commotion?

Patricia:  Just when something happened in the closet. I know it was in the closet, because that’s the only thing that’s over that part of the house. I don’t know. It was like they fell, is what it sounded like.

Scott:  Okay.

Patricia:  Not like someone just fell, but they tried to hide in the closet or something. Because I can hear people walking around. I think my grandpa probably heard him, tried to go in there or something. I hear the closet doors, because they squeeze and they run on tracks, noise through into the bottom. I heard the closet door shut, but then I heard– sounded like they fell. And then I heard them whispering around and stuff. And I didn’t think anything of it though, because they didn’t come back downstairs till they went into it.

 Then I heard them walk in down the hallway, and I think they stopped in the first bedroom at the top of the stairs. I think they stopped in the bathroom. I know they stopped in the bathroom because they got a razor.

Scott:  They got a razor.

Patricia:  Yeah, razor. Because I wanted a razor, so I could shave my legs. I haven’t shaved my legs in a really long time. So, they went to the bathroom and they got me a razor.

Scott:  Okay.

Patricia:  And then they were like [unintelligible . And then I started walking around, and then it was like 10 minutes or 15 minutes, and then they were like– I just hear them start running. They ran down the stairs real fast, and then they were like, “Come on, we got to go. We got to go. I think your gramps called cops,” I was like, “Okay.”

Scott:  Did they say anything about him being hurt or them getting in a fight forward or anything like that?

Patricia:  I told them they didn’t have to hurt my grandpa. I told them they didn’t because they were like, “Well, should one of us hold them and one of us take the wallet?” And I was like, “No, you guys don’t even have to do that, because you can’t move quick enough to stop you from taking the wallet.”

Scott:  Okay.

Patricia:  I feel better now that I said something, because now I can eat.

Scott:  Yeah, you weren’t eating very much earlier. That’s a lot to have on you, your conscience.

Patricia:  I had a really guilty conscience. They wouldn’t shut up. They’re like, “Oh, we got some money. Your grandpa’s so easy to [unintelligible .” That made me have a really guilty conscience. I wasn’t going to do any more bad things.

Scott:  Now, when you encountered those guys last night, did you guys have any conversation about what happened, what occurred at your grandfather’s house?

Patricia:  I told him I didn’t want to hear about it.

Scott:  Did they talk about it? Did you hear him say anything?

Patricia:  They were just like, “Man, we got some money. We got messed up.” And I was like, “I don’t care because I just didn’t want to hear about it.”

Scott:  Okay. What are they saying like, “We got some money.” Were they bragging?

Patricia:  Yeah, that they got money and that it was so easy.

Scott:  Okay. They talk about what happened to your grandfather. Did they say anything about injuring him or they say anything about him being easy to rip off?

Patricia:  Yeah, they said it was really easy. They got a lot of money.

Scott:  Okay. Did they make any mention about leaving town?

Patricia:  Yeah. It was [unintelligible  they want to go to [beep].

Scott:  Did they say they had relatives there or anything like that?

Patricia:  They were just going to like grab your car and [unintelligible .

Scott:  Okay. And so, do you know if they actually left?

Patricia:  I[unintelligible  interested in.

Zibby:  So, according to Patricia, the last time she saw Chris and Dwayne was when.

Scott:  She says, “I saw them yesterday.” So, July 5th. She said that they had been talking about traveling to another state. These kids insight into their thought process, she remarked that everybody always runs south. So, we’re going to go north.

Zibby:  That’s so teenagery.

Yeardley:  That was the big plan?

Scott:  Yeah.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Scott:  We’re going to throw them off by traveling north. On $87, how far are you going to get? So, through talking with Patricia, we learned that they went and bought marijuana and they bought more donuts and food, kid sort of items.

Yeardley:  Donuts and weed. Wow.

Zibby:  Do you track these guys down now?

Scott:  Yeah. So, we did the same thing. We did an attempt to locate for both of them. We put an additional alert with our patrol staff saying, “We were looking for these two kids and that they were involved in this robbery homicide.”

Zibby:  While you’re on the hunt for Dwayne and Chris, what do you do with Patricia?

Scott:  Well, meanwhile, she actually agreed to take us on a tour to find items that had been discarded. And among those were the contents of Murray’s wallet.

Yeardley:  So, she’s taking you along the same path that they ran after leaving her grandfather’s house?

Scott:  Right. She’s sitting in the back in the passenger seat. Jeff is in the back and I’m driving. And she has us stop. There are these water and electric meters that each residence has, and she directed Jeff to this little door to the meter that’s a few inches underground and she said, “We put some of his stuff in there. And sure enough, there’s his driver’s license.”

Zibby:  Come on.

Scott:  Yeah. And then she had us go up the block a little further, and she pointed out another one and there was more of his identification.

Dan:  The [unintelligible  you guys put out for Patricia worked in your favor pretty quickly. How’d it go with your attempt to locate Chris and Dwayne?

Scott:  They were caught the next day.

Dan  In town?

Scott:  In town. Yeah, on the mall.

Zibby:  And you go talk to them?

Scott:  We talked to both of them. They were harder eggs to crack. But ultimately, both of them admitted being involved in participating in the robbery. At the time, and again, this is 1997, and so news travel slower. Especially with youth, you didn’t have social media. And so, I think at the time we talked to them, they didn’t know that he was dead.

Dan:  But once you and Jeff revealed that bit of information, much like Patricia, the real story starts to spill out.

Scott:  Exactly. It’s that sort of spontaneous crime that evolves out of a crime. For the sake of the criminal discussion about what crimes they’ve committed. They’re committing burglary. They’ve broken into this house. That’s a dwelling that’s occupied with the intent of committing a crime inside. So, they’ve committed a burglary. They’ve also planned a hands-on theft robbery. They’re going to take this guy’s wallet by force. Albeit very little force, they’ve discussed that they’re going to take it by force.

 So, while the boys are upstairs and they are combing through Murray’s bedroom, they notice from within the bedroom, down the hallway, they can see Murray. He’s lying on the ground, on the carpeted floor in front of the television. And his back is to them and he is resting the right side of his head on his right hand.

Yeardley:  He’s on the floor?

Scott:  He’s just lying on the floor.

Yeardley:  Okay.

Zibby:  Just like because Murray did that? Like, it was a position he was into and maybe stretching his [unintelligible ?

Yeardley:  He didn’t have a couch?

Scott:  He had a favorite chair. I think it may have been a vision related thing, that he would position himself close to the television and maybe rest his eyes. But they saw him lying in front of the television. He’s got his legs crossed out to the side. So, he’s lying on his right side, as they describe it, and he’s resting his hand on the right side of his head and he’s just relaxing. They see that he’s got a wallet in his pocket.

Zibby:  Oh, I hate this so much.

Yeardley:  God.

Zibby:  It’s so dark.

Scott:  Yeah. And here it is. It’s early evening, but it’s lit in there. And because he doesn’t have his faculties about him, he doesn’t have that sense that somebody’s watching you.

Zibby:  Right. Which I get that sense even when nobody is watching me. You know what I mean?

Scott:  Right. [laughs]

Zibby:  I’m so paranoid being in a house by myself. And just to imagine that he’s there doing his own thing without any sense that somebody’s rifling through his home.

Scott:  Yeah. It’s particularly off putting and disturbing, but it’s despicable as well. Patricia describes hearing this sort of snickering, whispering, talking.

Yeardley:  Front of the boys.

Scott:  Yeah. She’s hearing the boys at the top of the stairs talking about what they’re planning on doing.

Yeardley:  Okay.

Dan:  Sneak up behind him and grab his wallet.

Scott:  Right. Dwayne and Chris made a plan in the hallway to go get the wallet. And Dwayne saw a heavy wooden cane, and he picked it up and thought, “I’m going to take this with me in case he puts up a fight.” So, they sneak up behind him. And Dwayne, apparently out of nowhere hits him in the head with a cane.

Zibby:  No. And Murray wasn’t even fighting? Had Murray even noticed them?

Scott:  As an excuse later, Dwayne says that when he’s coming up behind to sneak up on him that he sees Murray turn and reach back towards his leg. And so, Dwayne describes a sense that Murray has discovered that they’re approaching. And Dwayne says, “I don’t know, I’m afraid he might be reaching for a gun or something.”

Yeardley:  Really?

Scott:  So he says, “I hit him.”

Yeardley:  Jeez.

Scott:  And then, Dwayne describes that this cane shattered like glass. That was his description.

Yeardley:  Oh, my God.

Scott:  Yeah.

Yeardley:  On impact with Murray’s head.

Scott:  On impact. And then that they grabbed the wallet, took it out of his pocket. And Patricia heard running footsteps and activity upstairs, and they fled.

Zibby:  So, Dwayne and Chris fled, knowing they had at the very least injured Murray. And Patricia, if we believe her, flees the scene thinking that the boys had merely stolen from her grandfather. But she was totally ignorant of the fact that they had hurt him. Do you believe Patricia?

Scott:  I believe. I think we, as investigators, believe that she saw from the hallway when they confront Murray. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, she didn’t necessarily see. And so, she may not have known.

Dan:  It really gives her credibility when she says, “You’ll find stuff in that meter.” And you do. That’s a big deal. It makes her more credible.

Scott:  I don’t mean to minimize her involvement. I think she was sophisticated in some ways, but she lacked sophistication in other ways. She brought these guys in, and then trusted that they wouldn’t use force like that to liberate him of his contents of his wallet, you know?

Yeardley:  I assume you arrested Chris and Dwayne, what were they like? Were they defiant? Did they understand?

Scott:  They knew that it was a high consequence situation. But they didn’t put up any struggle. They were arrested without incident.

Yeardley:  It’s a pretty bloody crime scene. How does all that blood get all over the walls? And the floor Murray moved around?

Scott:  Yeah. So, we looked at it as confused, post injury, staggering around. I think he had tried to call somebody. The phone was off the hook. The handset was bloody. The phone book was opened, and there was blood on the pages. It didn’t look like he had gone from page to page, because the blood was all concentrated on the two pages that were open and facing up.

 There was slow moving droplets of blood, and it seemed to be a confused sort of a pattern. You can intuit the direction of travel with blood droplets. Especially, if they’re moving rapidly, there’ll be a trail off and you can determine the direction a person is walking if the blood is dropping off their arm or hands. And so, it looked like he had traversed the kitchen a couple of times. So, that transfer that we talked about on the wall was an accumulation of blood that was probably on his shirt, and on his shoulder and on his arms. Some of the blood trailed down to the floor in a smudge, so looked like he had fallen. I think he was losing consciousness. So, we believe that he got back, and got in bed on his own, and laid down and he died.

Yeardley:  Oh, God.

Zibby:  The whole scene I just keep saying it is so devastatingly sad, because his vulnerability, the fact that people were there plotting for his $87, smacked him on the head. He had no chance to defend himself, and then went through, who knows how long all of that by himself.

Scott:  Yeah. It is like that phenomenon when you’re watching a movie and you see somebody sneaking up behind, and it’s like, “Look behind you.”

Zibby:  Yeah.

Scott:  And so, there he lays when this is all going on behind him. I just remember Jeff and I talking about how disturbing that was, just to think about this poor old man, and his granddaughter who brought these thugs into the house, and they killed her grandpa right there and she’s involved in it.

Yeardley:  Was the light fixture now just considered an unrelated part of the scene, maybe a project that Murray was futzing around with, and he just never finished?

Scott:  Yeah, I think he had gone up on the stool, and that was part of his character description by Paul was that, that’s what he did. He fixed stuff.

Zibby:  And what about the weapon, the cane, that was used to kill Murray? Was that his walking cane, or what was it?

Scott:  Actually, Murray had purchased this cane for his granddaughter. It had an African carving on it, and he wanted to get that for her in recognition of heritage, because Patricia’s African-American, and she’s his adopted granddaughter. And so, he got that for her.

Zibby:  Oh.

Scott:  And ironically, it ends up being that object that he’s killed with.

Yeardley:  That is so sad. Was the cane ever found?

Scott:  Well, part of this cane had been discarded and thrown into a neighboring yard. Initially, this death incident involving Murray was small news. It was just, A Man Discovered Dead in his Home, and that was the title of the small article in the newspaper. And then, of course, a couple days later, it’s a full-on homicide investigation, and the neighborhood is the crime scene. And so, we start going back, and discovering these articles of clothing that the boys threw away. The part of the weapon that was discarded, evidence from within Murray’s wallet.

 So, in doing a canvas for witnesses and talking to people, we identify a neighbor who says, “Yesterday, July 5th, I found the stick in my yard.” He describes that it’s in diameter and dimension similar to what we were looking for, and we believe it was the weapon. But he said, “I put it in the garbage can, and the garbage was collected that afternoon.”

Yeardley and Zibby:  No.

Scott:  It’s Murphy’s law. Whatever can go wrong, will. And it seems to really apply to police work. Then there is the hole in the wall. So, Dan’s a golfer. And I describe this golf club style swing. And that’s the way that Dwayne described it. Murray’s head is down near the carpet. And so, when he swings and takes a swing at him, it is a golf club style swing. Jeff and I start discussing that mechanism of force and the way that Dwayne described the swing and how the cane shattered like glass.

Yeardley:  Did he describe that motion to you or to his other friends?

Scott:  He described it to us, and then he joked about it with Chris. So, they laughed about the sound that it made when it hit. And they did this in front of Patricia, and Patricia remembered that too. They all laughed about the sound that it made when it hit him.

Yeardley:  So, when the cane shattered, something broke off and hit the wall, right? Something, I’m trying to picture it.

Scott:  Right. The way this cane broke– I remember thinking about a time when I was golfing, and I hit the ball off a tee and the club face fractured. It must have had like air in the mold or something. I remember looking for the broken piece behind where I had stood to hit the ball. And in fact, it had traveled forward because of that forward force. And so, it was that same sort of mechanics behind this cane fracture, and it traveling forward and striking the wall making that hole.

Zibby:  I see.

Yeardley:  Were they remorseful, these kids, once you charged them for murder?

Scott:  Not really. I think we talked about the age. And so, in 1994, in our state, there was a mandatory minimum sentencing guideline that were passed by voters making the age of 15 years, the age where you were held responsible in that state as an adult. So, Dwayne was one of the first in our state to be held accountable as an adult. And so, Dwayne got 25 years to life. Patricia got an 11-year sentence, and Chris got a 16-year sentence.

Yeardley:  Wow.

Zibby:  Wow.

Yeardley:  So, Patricia and Chris should be out of prison now. Do you have a jag on them?

Scott:  Chris and Patricia remain criminals.

Yeardley:  Oh, they do?

Scott:  Oh, yeah.

Yeardley:  Do you still encounter them?

Scott:  Patricia, I hear about with some routine. She’s still discussed in the community as a criminal among law enforcement.

Zibby:  What about Patricia’s dad? Were you the ones to give him the news that his daughter had played a part in murdering his own father?

Scott:  Yes. Jeff and I sat down with him and talked to him about it.

Zibby:  How did he take that?

Scott:  With a heavy heart. He’s a good man. He was caretaking for his father, and he was taking care of Patricia. I think he was doing what he felt like was all the right things. And unfortunately, Patricia was not to be caged. And so, she fled and she came back town. We did a video reenactment utilizing Patricia. She walked us through the scene, and she described what happened and how they got in and where people were and where the actors were when this crime occurred.

Yeardley:  In the house, you did this video reenactment?

Scott:  Yes. And at some point, we introduced that as evidence during trial. And so, Paul was in the courtroom and he saw that.

Zibby:  Oh, dear.

Scott:  To see your daughter, 14-year-old, describing this. The thing is, she’s a kid. So, she giggles and makes light of things that certainly aren’t appropriate. And I think it just was probably particularly chilling for Paul to have to experience that.

Zibby:  Did he sit on the prosecution side or the defense side?

Scott:  He sat on the defense side. There were other family that were there. And of course, I guess we talked with some contempt with these criminals’ kids. But the reality is their actions impact that family. There’s a family out there with these kids that has probably tried to bring them through it. I think in so many ways, parents, we all think, but for the grace of God there, it could be my kid.

Zibby:  Right.

Yeardley:  Was Patricia, Paul’s only child?

Scott:  Yes.

Dan:  I have to ask, how did Stan take the news that he was wrong? And in fact, it was a homicide.

Scott:  Stan had a poker face all the time.

[laughter]

Scott:  It was gratifying to me, the fact that Jeff and I were able to put this together and at least for the time being, put Stan a little bit, knock him down a couple pegs. It was pretty cool.

Yeardley:  Back on his heels?

Scott:  Yeah. This case was quite a learning experience for me. Stan’s behavior taught me a pretty good lesson. What you think you see isn’t necessarily the whole story.

[music]

Zibby:  Thank you for sitting down with us today, Scott.

Yeardley:  Yes, thank you.

 Small Town Dicks is produced by Zibby Allen and Yeardley Smith, and coproduced by Detectives Dan and Dave.

Zibby:  This episode was edited by Logan Heftel, Yeardley Smith and Zibby Allen.

Yeardley:  Music for the show was composed by John Forest. Our associate producer is Erin Gaynor, and our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell.

Zibby:  If you like what you hear and want to stay up to date with the show, head on over to smalltowndicks.com and become our pal on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, @smalltowndicks. We love hearing from our Small Town Fam. So, hit us up.

Yeardley:  Yeah. And also, we have a YouTube channel where you can see trailers for past and forthcoming episodes. And we are part of Stitcher Premium now.

Zibby:  That’s right. If you choose to subscribe, you’ll be supporting our podcast. That way, we can keep going to small towns across the country and bringing you the finest in rare true crime cases, told, as always, by the detectives who investigated them. Thanks for listening, Small Town Fam.

Yeardley:  Nobody’s better than you.

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