Yeardley:  Hey, Small Town Fam. It’s Yeardley. How are you guys? Oh, we missed you. We missed you so much. And I am very excited that you’re here with me today to kick off Season 15 of Small Town Dicks. We have a great episode for you today. Now, I will warn you right off the bat that it’s a sex abuse case where a teenager is one of the victims. But the guest on the mic Bre, who’s new to the Small Town Fam, but who is for sure about to become your latest fan favorite, is extraordinarily thoughtful and respectful in her descriptions of the crimes committed. I am certain that you’ll agree that if, God forbid, you ever found yourself in a situation like the one we cover today, you would want Bre to be the detective assigned to your case.

 For me, this episode is the definition of why so many of us listen to true crime. And that is, if there are people in the world who have no problem victimizing others in large and small ways for their own depraved pleasure, then I am slightly comforted by the fact that there’s another group of people who work in law enforcement who are equally dedicated to stopping these offenders and getting justice for the victims. This case is like that. Here is Superstar.

[music]

 Hi, there. I’m Yeardley.

Dan:  I’m Dan.

Dave:  I’m Dave.

Paul:  And I’m Paul.

Yeardley:  And this is Small Town Dicks.

Dan:  Dave and I are identical twins-

Dave:  –And retired detectives from Small Town, USA.

Paul:  And I’m a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

Dan:  Between the three of us, we’ve investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Dave:  Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare, personal account of how they solved the crime.

Paul:  Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

Dan:  And although we’re aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved-

Dave:  -out of respect for what they’ve been through.

[unison]:  Thank you.

Yeardley:  Today on Small Town Dicks, we have the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Dan:  Hello, team.

Yeardley:  Hello, you. We have detective Dave.

Dave:  Hello, everyone.

Yeardley:  Hello, Dav, as I like to call you. And we have the one and only Paul Holes.

Paul:  Hey, hey.

Yeardley:  [laughs]We’re nothing if not consistent on our podcast and Small Town Fam, I am so pleased to welcome a new guest to the podcast, Detective Bre.

Bre:  Hi, guys.

Yeardley:  So, we actually met Bre at CrimeCon and became fast friends. Bre, give us a thumbnail biography of your career.

Bre:  Okay. So, I actually grew up in law enforcement. My dad spent 33 years at the agency that I work for, and so I grew up around the culture and as friends and hearing all the stories. And so, from a very young age, I knew that law enforcement was going to be the route that I took. Even though, I started in med school and made a huge switch, my parents were not real thrilled with me.

[laughter]

 But I started when I was 22, and I’ve been there for a little over 18 years now. I started in patrol like everybody does, and I did six years on patrol. And then my very last night on patrol, I got into a fight, and I broke my arm, snapped my humerus in two pieces. And so, I ended up going on no duty for a little while. And then when I was able to come back to work, they had me on light duty, and they put me in our criminal investigation division. And so, I was put with a group of deputies that were investigating tax fraud on this task force.

 And so, I was just helping them with subpoenas and paperwork, office stuff. And I was dying. I was like, “I need to go back to the road.” I’m listening to all my friends tell the fun stories, but a broken bone isn’t something you can fake. But anyway, so I get cleared to come back to full duty, and they asked me to stay on the task force and continue working these cases with the guys. I was a little bit disappointed. I was ready to go back to all the fun patrol stuff, but I agreed. And then they asked me if I would stay. They were going to promote me to detective and put me in economic crimes. So, I did. I spent two years on economic crimes, not for me.

Yeardley:  Dan is shaking his head. [Dan laughs] No, no. [Yeardley laughs]

Bre:  God bless the guys that do that. So, I did two years there, and then I got the opportunity to go to our crimes against children squad, and that is where I’ve been for the last nine years. I just, three months ago, moved to our cold case homicide section, but prior to that, I did sex crimes for a really long time.

Yeardley:  That’s incredible. I mean, Dave can speak to that, of course, having investigated sex crimes and child abuse for, what was it, seven years, Dave?

Dave:  Just under seven.

Yeardley:  Good God. Because every day in that particular caseload has got to feel like a year.

Bre: [ You know, it’s interesting, I think it definitely takes a certain type of person, but the cases are extremely rewarding when you do finally get to put these people where they belong. And it’s a very rewarding position. I’m sure Dave can attest to that.

Dave:  When you brought up going to the financial crimes, that side of investigations, and Dan starts shaking his head, he was immediately who I looked at. I was like, “Oh, damn, that’ll resonate,” [Yeardley laughs] because it’s natural for detectives for that to be their first taste of investigations on the detective side of the fence.

Yeardley:  Why is that?

Dave:  It’s very exacting, because the elements are fairly clearly marked out for you in the statutes. So, if he did this and did this, and if this is present, then I have this crime. And so financial crimes are really frustrating to work because I’m not good with numbers, but there’s lots of documentation, and there’s lots of evidence to follow financial transactions. So, it’s how you start learning subpoenas and writing search warrants and writing affidavits for banks to get access to records. All of those things that you’re going to need for any other caseload. But I think about when Yeardly’s like, “You know, most people don’t want to investigate child abuse crimes.” If you go to a child abuse investigator, like, “Oh, no, I’m in the right spot.” The worst thing you could ever do to me is put me in financial crimes. [Yeardley laughs]

Bre:  That’s so true.

Dave:  We’re like, “Get me away from that.”

Yeardley:  [laughs] Fair enough. So, Bre, please tell us how this case came to you.

Bre:  So, this case actually came through my queue very briefly in 2017. At that time, I had been a detective for two years, and the case was just that there was anonymous tip that this 15-year-old girl had been sexually abused by her father. And it was very vague, and it was anonymous. There was nobody for me to go and talk to, to get more information. And so, the report that came to me had this information, and also an interview with the victim, Jennifer. And Jennifer, at that time, in 2017, says, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m fine. I’m happy. I’m healthy, at home.” And the report pretty much ends there. I came to my queue for me to review, but she’s telling us everything is okay, and so the case gets unfounded, and I close it.

Yeardley:  If you get anonymous call like that. So, you actually don’t know who made that report, are you obligated or inclined? Because that’s who you are Bre to investigate that report.

Bre:  We would always follow up on any information that we got. We at least owe a conversation with Jennifer to find out if there’s any legitimacy to this anonymous report. But also, it’s a balance because you don’t want to invade someone’s personal space and their privacy if they’re not willing to talk about whatever it was that happened. And our state attorney’s office won’t do anything with cases where you don’t have a victim who’s willing to come forward. Victims are not going to talk until they’re absolutely ready. So, she may be willing to share with a friend, but to have a law enforcement officer sit down and ask all the very intimate details, she was just not ready for that. And we found that out later on. She just was not quite prepared to travel down that road yet.

Yeardley  Right. Right. That’s what Davo says.

Bre:  So, in June of 2019, Jennifer comes back into my caseload and my queue.

Yeardley:  So, this is two years later now from the initial report, yes.

Bre:  Correct. Two years goes by. And what we didn’t realize at that time in 2019, when we get this second report, was that for two years, once Jennifer’s father, Scott, got wind of her talking openly to somebody about this, that the sexual abuse actually stopped. So, for two years, she’s been abuse free. And in June of 2019, Scott goes back into Jennifer’s room late at night as if he’s going to reoffend. And she, at this point, is 17 years old, and she says, “Not going to happen.” So, she tells her mom she wants to go to her aunt Susan’s house and spend the night. This was on a weekend. Her mom agrees. She doesn’t disclose anything to her mom at this point. Mom allows her to go to Aunt Susan’s house to spend the weekend.

 So, while Jennifer is at her aunt Susan’s house, she tells Aunt Susan, “Hey, this is what my dad has been doing to me. He’s been sexually abusing me since I was five years old.” And Aunt Susan says, “I believe you. And the reason I believe you is because he also sexually abused me as a child.”

Yeardley:  So, Susan and Scott are siblings.

Bre:  Susan and Scott are biological siblings. So, Susan and Scott are seven years apart in age. Scott is seven years older than Susan. And we later find out that the abuse started with her at about the same age that it started with Jennifer. So, after an interview is conducted with Jennifer and we find out all of the details involving Jennifer and Scott, and I don’t know how graphic we really want to get, but it started with digital penetration, and then he escalated. And when she was eight years old, he started having full blown penis to vagina sexual intercourse with her, and that continued until she was 15 years old. And she made this disclosure to a friend, and then the friend actually told her mom, and mom reported it anonymously.

Yeardley:  We’re still talking about Jennifer here.

Bre:  Talking about Jennifer. Yeah, so the majority of her life, her dad had been creeping in her room at night and having sex with her. So, we also interview the rest of the family. So, Scott is married to Michelle. Scott and Michelle have been married for over 20 years. They were high school sweethearts, and they had four kids together. The oldest three were girls. Their youngest was a boy. So, I spoke to all of the children in this family and determined that Jennifer’s little sister Rachel was also a victim of Scott. And she says that he also was coming into her room and digitally penetrating her.

Yeardley:  And what’s the age difference between Jennifer and Rachel?

Bre:  Two years. I interviewed the other sister, and she made no disclosures. So, either Scott hadn’t gotten around to her, he was too busy with Jennifer and Rachel, or the other sister just wasn’t quite ready to talk about it, which was probably more than likely the case. So, at this point, I’ve interviewed the children, I’ve talked to Aunt Susan, and then during this investigation, Susan’s other biological sister. So, also, Scott’s sister Lisa, travels from out of state to my state to make a report and say she is also a victim of Scott. Lisa is also a victim. Lisa’s is even more egregious. Not that they aren’t all egregious, but hers was going on from the time she was little for the longest amount of time. Scott was in the military, and he went off to basic when he was 18 years old.

 And he would come home from basic training or from wherever he was at doing his military duties, and he would sexually abuse both of his sisters. So, Susan tells me that she told her mother that this was going on, and her mother told her she would handle it. And then four to six months later, Susan’s mom comes back to her and says, “Hey, did all of that stop with Scott?” And Susan says, “Yeah, which it hadn’t. She lied.” Because at that point, she realized mom wasn’t really doing anything. And then she asks her mom, “Why?” And she says, “Well, because Lisa said that something’s also going on with her.”

Yeardley:  And Bre, because I’ve read little cliff notes, Lisa and Susan’s mom actually said, “It’s your fault, and I’m going to pray for you, because you are sinners.”

Bre:  Yes. So, at that time, once Lisa had come forward. Mom brings them together, and she prays for them because Lisa and Susan are the sinners and continues to allow her now grown son access to her children.

Dave:  So I want to step in here. All of us, we’re all shaking our heads and disappointed and, like, what the F is that? For sex crimes detectives, this is the rule rather than the exception. This happens all the time. Disclosure, mom, whoever the guardian is, says no. For some reason, it’s, he wouldn’t do that or they blame the child. Like, “You always flirt with him. Or if this happens, you know, we’re all going to be homeless because he’s our breadwinner in the house.” So, there’s all these controls and this coercive thing going on. And then you have multiple children in Scott’s house when he was a child, and now when he’s a father. And siblings do this very interesting dynamic where if one sibling, one child in this house is getting abused, sometimes they think I’m the only one.

 And if he’s doing it to me, then he’s not doing it to my brothers and sisters. So, they just wear it, and they basically jump on the grenade and absorb all this abuse. This story is par for the course in sexual abuse. Dad or boyfriend or somebody, a visitor to the house sneaking in the middle of the night to a bedroom that’s not secured and there’s no supervision. And now this offender, if he doesn’t make a whole lot of noise, has an isolated victim and a closed bedroom door that’s expected to be closed for hours. So, this truly happens all the time. It’s why we talk about grooming, because these are the flags that we all recognize on the sex crimes investigator side, where we go if that’s happening. I know what’s happening when people aren’t watching.

Paul:  And I’m curious because this is an interesting family dynamic from my perspective. Typically, let’s say you have a mother and her biological children, and there’s a man brought into the family, husband, stepfather, etc. And this person who’s not part of this biological family is the offender. Here you have a mother whose son is offending against her own daughters. And I’m curious, is that something you guys run into on a frequent basis?

Unison:  Yes.

[laughter]

Bre:  Yes, it is.

Yeardley:  Altogether now.

Bre:  And it’s hard. I certainly understand the parent’s perspective. As a mom, you want to protect all of your children, and I understand that. But this goes far beyond kids being curious and playing doctor. This is far, far beyond that. And I know it’s a hard decision for the parents to make, but we’ve prosecuted parents for not reporting that one child was being abused by another.

Yeardley:  What is Jennifer’s affect when you finally do sit down with her in 2019?

Bre:  She was very timid. She was 17 years old, but she almost presented very childlike. She was very soft spoken. And what I learned through this investigation, which took place in a very short amount of time was that the family was terrified of Scott. Everybody was terrified of Scott.

[Break 1]

 So, once Susan knows this disclosure from Jennifer, Susan calls Jennifer’s mother, Michelle. This is in the evening, and she says, “You need to get the children and you need to get out of that house and meet me at the police department.” So, Michelle does. She gathers up all three of her children at that point because Jennifer is with Susan, and she drives to Susan’s house, and that’s when Susan tells Michelle all of the things that Jennifer has disclosed. So, they then go to the police department and a report is filed.

 I then get it the very next morning. So, Michelle spent the night at Susan’s house. They did not go home.

Yeardley:  And Bre, what was Michelle’s reaction to Jennifer’s disclosure? Was she surprised? Did she believe her right off the bat? Did it take the fact that Scott’s sisters, Susan and Lisa, also had been abused by him to corroborate Jennifer’s statements?

Bre:  You know, one thing I really loved about Michelle was that she believed her daughters immediately. She didn’t give any pushback. And again, I think because Scott was such a toxic individual in that home, I don’t think it was a far stretch.

Yeardley:  It wouldn’t have been totally out of character.

Bre:  Correct.

Yeardley:  Bre, did you ever get the sense that Michelle was a victim of domestic violence, either sexual or physical?

Bre:  I definitely got that vibe from her, but I specifically asked her about any domestic violence, and she said that there was not domestic violence, but I think there was a lot of just verbal abuse going on in the home. They were absolutely terrified of Scott. They were terrified that if he found out that he was going to hurt them, and it seemed to be a pretty common theme throughout this investigation that he was a hothead and he was controlling and he was angry individual. So, when I get this first thing the next morning, Michelle had already reached out to me. I already had voicemails on my phone to call her. So, I call and she is voicing her concerns for their physical safety. So, this is one, of course, that I jump right on.

 And so I go through the process of talking to everybody and figuring out exactly what we have. And at this point, we’re talking about a two-year delay–

Yeardley:  -between the first and second reports about Jennifer.

Bre:  Yes. So, we have no physical evidence to collect. We have no witnesses. We pretty much have, as he said, although we have multiple people saying the same thing, which we have case law in my state that allows those other individuals to testify for, let’s say, the main victim in whatever case, whatever one’s the most egregious, then we have case law that says that these other people can come forward and testify on their behalf. So, at this point, I know we have to think outside the box a little bit, and I’m concerned that Michelle has to go home.

 Scott is now just blowing her phone up with text messages. “Where are you guys?” And she’s trying to placate him. “Hey, we went over to Susan’s house because Jennifer wasn’t feeling well, and then we just decided to stay the night because it was getting late.” So, she’s giving him all these excuses while we’re basically doing this investigation. So, Michelle tells Scott that they’re going to go run some errands. Jennifer’s going to stay and watch Susan’s kids. She’s going to babysit. They’re all going to go run some errands, and they’ll be home later.

 So, at this point, I asked Jennifer if she would be willing to place a call to Scott and attempt to get him to say some incriminating things on this call. So, Yeardley, I don’t know if you’re familiar with what we call controlled calls in my state, but it’s basically where somebody will call a perpetrator and try to elicit incriminating statements from them, and it just helps the investigation. So, I asked Jennifer if she would be willing to do this call, and she says, “Basically, no not happening. I’m terrified.” She’s not down with this at all.

Dave:  They often require some persuasion. The first few that I ever asked somebody, “Hey, what you willing to do a controlled call?” And they’re like, “Absolutely not.” So, you learn a voice track. I say, “Hey, this is your chance to stand up to your perpetrator. It’s your chance to get invaluable evidence to win this case. It’s your chance to say whatever you want to say to this person and not have any consequences, because I’m going to be sitting right next to you, you got to expose all the good that one call can do.” And I’ve never understated how brave and courageous? I don’t know that I have the ability to do that and stay calm, get to the points that I need to get to, and keep my focus on the conversation. I just don’t know if I could do that. So, victims that do that are incredibly brave to do so.

Yeardley:  Do you actually convince Jennifer to make this controlled call? And how does that happen?

Bre:  I did. So, we had a very long conversation, just like Dave said. I told her, “I’m not going to make you do this. This is something that you have to choose to do.” But all the things that Dave said, it’s very important. And I recognize that this is a huge ask, and I would not ask you to do this unless it was important. And I’m going to be right here with you. I’m not going to leave your side. If you get stuck, I’ll help you. I’ll write you a little note. I am not going to leave you hanging on this call. But admittedly, they’re nerve wracking for me too. You never really know what someone’s going to say and how a victim’s going to respond. And my blood pumps when we do these calls.

 So Jennifer ultimately agrees and Michelle agrees as well. Because Jennifer’s a juvenile, Michelle has to agree to allow her to participate in this call. So, we have Jennifer call Scott, and I don’t want to miss anything that this asshole said. So, I’ve got notes. So, the call lasts about an hour, which was funny, because he tells her that he’s at work, he’s busy. He doesn’t have a whole lot of time. But as soon as she brings this up, he stays on the line. Scott keeps Jennifer on the line because now he needs to figure out what she’s going to tell, what she’s mad about and start doing some gauging on her.

 So, right off the rip, Jennifer says to Scott, “You know, we need to talk about something important.” And she tells him, “I am scared that you’re going to come back into my room again.” And he immediately asks, “Where are you?” And she says, “I’m at Aunt Susan’s house, and I’m babysitting.” And before he’s willing to say anything, he asks her, “Are you alone? Are there any cameras in the house?” And she says, “No, I’m alone. You know, I’m babysitting. But the kids are playing upstairs, and I’m downstairs in the living room, and I’m by myself.” And she says, “I just want you to know you can’t come in my room anymore?” And she says, “And I demand an apology.”

Yeardley:  Go, Jennifer.

Bre:  She killed it. I mean, she did amazing. So, Scott says, “I’m sorry.” And then she lets him have it. She says, “You know, I’ve always been scared of you because of what you’ve done, and I don’t want to feel terrified or afraid anymore.” And she asks him, “Why did you have sex with me?” And he tells her, “I want to talk face to face.” And she’s like, “No, we’re not doing that. Now’s the time you’re going to have this conversation with me and we’re going to get this out in the open.” And he says, “Well, somebody could be listening to our conversation.” And she’s like, “Who would want to listen to our conversation, dad?”

Yeardley:  Jennifer’s dialed in.

Bre:  Man, for somebody who was afraid to do it, I was just absolutely blown away by how composed she was and how articulate. She just did an amazing job.

Dave:  You can see the switch flip in the middle of a call sometimes where they’re empowered, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m in the driver’s seat right now, and he’s on his heels, and I’ve never been in a position like this.”

Bre:  Yeah, it is an amazing thing to watch. So, Jennifer asks Scott, “What’s wrong with you?” And he says, “it’s like being a dark blue spot and a sea of black.” And then he says, “It’s like something inside that’s trying to claw its way out.” And he tells her that, “He’s had these feelings since he was a small child, started in preschool.” He says, “It’s like having a certain attraction.” And so, then she says, “Are you attracted to little girls?” And he says, “Just you,” which we know is bullshit because he’s molested everybody in his life basically. So, once he tells Jennifer that this started when he was a child, she flat out asks him, “Did you do this to your sisters?” And he again says, “Well, we can talk face to face.”

 So, he keeps putting her off, and he then asks her, “Why did you decide to call me?” And she reminds him, “You know, that the abuse had stopped for two years and that when she woke up and saw him in her room, she was afraid that he was going to start having sex with her again.” So, Scott tells Jennifer, “Well, I was just coming into your room to talk to you.

Yeardley:  In the middle of the night?

Bre:  Right. And Jennifer says, “Really, dad? You came in to talk to me while I was sleeping?” Like, I’m not an idiot. I know what you are getting ready to do? And he says, “Innocence.” Yeah. He plays it off. So, she keeps on. “Should I keep this a secret?” And he tells her, “Yeah, I think you should.” Scott says, “Well, my life would be over, and I might as well just kill myself.” And Jennifer doesn’t even bat an eye at this. She’s kind of like, “Okay, you’re not going to manipulate me anymore. This isn’t happening.” Just like Dave said, I’m in the driver’s seat. I’m in control now, and you’re going to answer my questions, and we’re doing this now. So, they go on to talk about, what’s wrong with him and why he is this way.

 And Jennifer says again, “Well, you know, you’re my dad, and we had sex when I was eight or nine years old. And you messed me up in every way. And you’re my blood, and I should love you, but I find it very hard sometimes. You make me very uncomfortable.” And he apologizes. So, Scott does admit to Jennifer that he has done sexual things to her sister Rachel as well. But he says, “But not like you,” which we knew at that point, because Jennifer is claiming that it’s full-blown sex, and Rachel is saying digital penetration. So, this lines up with what we know. So, Jennifer tells Scott, “Again, you sexually abuse me and anyone who loves anyone wouldn’t do that.”

 And she says, “For the longest time, I felt like some tool to you, some toy, just something that you could play with during the night. Because I was easy, because I was a child, and that was wrong.” I mean, she just gave it to him.

Yeardley:  Wow. I’m quite surprised that Scott is willing to stay on the line this long and continue the conversation.

Dan:  He’s mining for information. He’s doing a damage assessment, is what he’s doing. Like, how deep am I into this, and how do I find a way out? Scott’s trying to manipulate Jennifer with the suicide comment. “Oh, you’re special. You’re my special girl. I only did those things to you because you’re special.” This is full on manipulation, and he’s trying to gather information so he can figure out what he’s going to do next. This is self-preservation.

Dave:  Dan is right on the target. And there’s more to that dynamic, is that Scott knows throughout the history of his life that disclosures either don’t come forward or they’re not believed when they do. So, early on, Scott with his sisters when he was a child, basically, they handle it inside the family and that is part and parcel to work in sex crimes, you deal with that all the time. That the family doesn’t want that to get out because that means that dad’s going to go away for years or whatever. So, you have that, but you have Scott, who’s traditionally been very in charge of every person he’s put his hands on, that they’re all afraid of him.

 And the moment that he walks into Jennifer’s room after this, two years of not offending on Jennifer, and she says, “Ah, ah not tonight.” The minute Jennifer left that house, he started panic mode right there because, “Oh, shit, everything’s out of my hands.” It’s why we see a lot of children, when they’re physically abused, that parents keep them out of school, because loose lips sink ships and teachers ask questions and nurses ask questions at school, like, “Where’d you get that bruise?” And kids just say what happened unless they’re coached into never revealing anything. So, Scott is probably in a full, at least 12-to-15-hour panic mode here by the time that he gets on the phone with Jennifer, and that’s his only tie to her to control what she’s going to say. So, he’s got to stay on the phone because he’s terrified of the moment she hangs up.

Yeardley:  Wow. Okay.

Paul:  Yeah. And Bre, at this point in this phone conversation, you’ve got some great admissions by Scott about having sex with Jennifer. In your state, do you need him to explicitly state what sex acts he has done with Jennifer in order to prove elements of the crime or at this point, are you just now trying to get probable cause in order to be able to move forward with the case?

Bre:  So, in my state, we have the victim’s disclosure, and we have, at this point, Scott corroborating what Jennifer is saying. So, in our state, we’re good to go. Cuffs are going on.

Yeardley:  Okay, so Jennifer has got on the hook like she is reading in the riot act. How does the call wrap up and how does she feel after that?

Bre:  So this was a moment that I will literally never forget. And I might even get a little bit choked up. Sorry.

Dave:  You’re among friends here.

Bre:  She hangs up the phone and she goes, [sobs] “I did it. I did it.” And she’s like, got her fist in the air. And it was this just beautiful moment of this girl who had her whole innocence and her childhood stripped from her, and she was finally getting that back. And I looked in the backseat at her mother, and her mother, of course, was sobbing. And of course, I’m more emotional about it now at the time I think my lip was bleeding. I was biting so hard not to cry. But it was amazing. It was amazing to see her go from this mild, meek little girl into this articulate, empowered woman. I mean, really, it was incredible.

Yeardley:  That’s amazing. I have tears in my eyes.

Dave:  Bre’s reaction there. This is how cops feel about standing up for victims. Bre’s going to keep that with her for the rest of her life. That’s why cops do the job right there.

Yeardley: [7] And Bre, you said that you looked in the backseat to Michelle, Jennifer’s mom. Were you guys in your patrol car?

Bre:  Yes. Sorry. Yeah, I forgot to mention that. We went inside of my car to make the call, just because at the office, somebody’s always walking into a room interrupting and we didn’t want to have any background noise, so we just went and sat in my car, and Jennifer sat in the passenger seat next to me, and Michelle sat in the back seat. So, Michelle had listened to the whole hour-long conversation, which, as a mom, I can’t even imagine the strength it took for her to sit and listen to her oldest daughter talk to her husband about these awful things. Because it’s so dynamic, because I’m sure Michelle felt guilt. I don’t know how you couldn’t.

 Even though she is not responsible at all for any of the things that happened, this is happening in her home, and it just highlights how good these guys are at committing these crimes. They do it in secrecy and in the dark and with coercion and grooming. And Dave, I’ve heard you say it before, Paul, as well. We’re grooming the children. We’re grooming the parents. We’re grooming the neighbors. We’re grooming everybody because that’s how we get away with it. He was good at it. He’d gotten away with it for years and years and years. And so, Michelle, I mean, she was a superstar also. Dave mentioned earlier in the conversation that these people are sometimes the breadwinners. And that was the case in this family. She was a stay-at-home mom, and he went to work and he made the money.

 So, not only is Michelle contending with the abuse of at least two of her children, her sisters, all of this. Now she’s like, “I got to support my family. Scott is going to prison and I have to support my family.” And that’s a lot. I always encourage when I talk to parents and they say, “Well, what kind of therapy can I get for my child? We go through that.” And then I’m like, “You need to go talk to somebody too, because this is heavy on your heart as well.”

Yeardley:  Sure.

Dan:  So, at the end of this controlled call, are you thinking, “Okay, I’ve got probable cause at this point?”

Bre:  Absolutely.

Dan:  And now it’s, where’s Scott at?

Bre:  Where’s Scott? We’re going to go find that motherfucker.

Dan:  Yeah.

[laughter]

[Break 2]

Yeardley:  So, like, literally, do you rally the troops and go try to find Scott and arrest him, or does it happen the next day? How does that work?

Bre:  Oh, no, he needed to go that day. And we were also very concerned or I was very concerned because the family had explicitly expressed their concern for their physical safety. And so, I could not let Michelle go home with her kids knowing that Scott was a hothead and temper. And now he knows that Jennifer’s talking. So that had to happen immediately.

Dave:  What’s your understanding? Does Scott have guns? Are there dogs at the house? Where are you anticipating that you’re going to have your first contact with Scott? And what would be the officer’s safety concerns there for your department?

Bre:  So, we do ask those questions. They did not have guns. Michelle expressed that they did not have guns in the house. They had a small dog who was no threat and that Scott was at home. So, we knew that we were going to be responding to his residence and talking to him there. So, this gets a little bit tricky because I still want to talk to Scott, and I still want to do an interview with him and get him to tell me all the things that I want to know. So, we don’t want to show up and just snatch him up. We still have to play nice because we want him to talk to us. And so, my corporal at the time volunteered to go and talk with Scott with me.

 So, it was just the two of us, which we do quite often. Not always the best tactic. It’s funny because when I was on patrol, I used to look at the detectives and say, “Oh, my gosh, they have no officer safety. They don’t have their vests on. They’re just willy nilly out here just talking to whoever.”

[laughter]

 And then became a detective and I was like, “Well, you know, you got to be nice. You have to play nice because you want these people to talk to you.” And so, it’s a very fine line, and it’s a balance between making sure that you’re safe and getting somebody to confess to capital sexual battery charges.

Yeardley:  So, how is Scott when you and your corporal knock on his door? Is he expecting you?

Bre:  I think he absolutely was expecting us. One of my favorite questions is, “Do you know why we’re here to talk to you today?”

Yeardley:  And what does he say? [laughs]

Bre:  He says, “I think I do.”

Yeardley:  Oh, wow. Because sometimes they go, “No, I have no idea how can I help you?”

Bre:  Sure. Oh, yeah. They’re definitely the ones that play dumb or the ones who did it so long ago that they just can’t remember, like, “I wonder what they’re here for. I don’t know. It’s a plethora of crimes that I’ve committed. Who knows what she’s here for today.” [laughs]

Yeardley:  Right?

Bre:  So, because Scott and Jennifer had just ended this call, probably an hour prior to the knock at the door, he knew what was going on. So, we go inside, he invites us in, we sit down at the kitchen table. And I love Dan that you already just wrapped Scott up in a bow, because he was absolutely on a fishing expedition. He wanted to know what I knew. He wanted to ask me questions. He was trying to control the interview.

 And it was very, very clear to me in the first two minutes of interaction with Scott, why everybody was so afraid of him and why he had done such a good job of controlling the people in his life. Scott was asking all the questions. “Well, what do you know? Why don’t you tell me why you’re here?” And I know that this is not technical, but he had the shark eyes like the dead, just no emotion, looking right through you, just an evil presence. And I know that sounds dramatic, but I think that Dave and Dan and Paul can agree that there are people that they have been in the presence of, and you just feel the evil coming from them. He was just very manipulative and he was very rigid. He was sitting at the kitchen table with his hands folded in front of him.

 His biceps were flexing. The whole time we were talking, I could see his temple flexing. He was clenching his jaw and it was almost like he had to keep his hands in front of him in an effort to control himself. I felt like he was on the verge of just exploding at any minute.

Dave:  How deep into this conversation do you reveal to Scott, or did you that you were present for this phone call just an hour, hour and a half prior?

Bre:  I never told him. [laughs]

Dave:  I love it.

[laughter]

Dave:  Let him be a liar. And then you hit him with that, like, “Oh, shit.”

Bre:  Yeah. And I said things like, I know that this happened. I’m not asking you questions that I don’t already know the answers to. I’m here to gauge how remorseful you are, how willing you are to own what you did to Jennifer. I told him, Jennifer loves you. She is your child, and she loves you. But Jennifer needs to heal. Jennifer needs to move on. And Jennifer can’t do that unless you acknowledge your part in this and you validate her and give her what she needs to be able to move forward. And I also told him, “You don’t want to drag your children through a lengthy trial.” So, there was a little bit of that going on. I told him, “Jennifer wants you to get help.” And she really did. She wanted her dad to get better.

 And he told me, “There isn’t help for people with my proclivity.” And I said, “What proclivity is that?” And he said, “pedophiles.”

Yeardley:  Bingo.

Bre:  Bingo. That’s about all of the admission that we got from Scott before he decided that he wanted a lawyer present.

Dan:  During your interview with Scott, Scott finally says, “You know what? I think I need a lawyer.” What happened next in that room?

Bre:  Well, I told Scott, very well. “Will you go ahead and stand up please, and turn around and put your hands behind your back?” And he did. He stood up. We put him in handcuffs and walked him out of his home and sat him on the front porch to wait for our transport unit.

Dan:  So, all the neighbors could see.

Bre:  All the neighbors.

Yeardley:  Bre, did Scott have any prior arrests or prior convictions for anything, any crimes?

Bre:  Nothing.

Yeardley:  Nothing.

Bre:  But that’s not unusual.

Dave:  Yeah. Every interaction with police puts at risk what their real desire is. So, they do whatever they can to stay above board, be a contributing member to society, and keep the radar off theme.

Yeardley:  Right. Dave, you have always said that pedophiles in particular really go the distance to blend in so that they can keep doing what they’re doing. They don’t want to draw any attention to themselves.

Dave:  Right.

Yeardley:  What does Scott do for a living?

Bre:  Scott worked for a big telephone company. He was on the tech side of things.

Yeardley:  Likea guy out in the field actually working on telephone poles or as a guy writing code on a computer.

Bre:  Code on a computer. Oh, he actually worked from home. He did a lot of traveling in the early part of his career where he was going out as a contractor, I believe, to different companies. And then at the end of his career, the last five or six years, he was working from home, doing the computer stuff on the back end.

Yeardley:  Worst possible scenario for those children.

Bre:  Right. Never left.

Paul:  One thing that really stuck out to me in the phone conversation between Jennifer and Scott is when Scott is saying he’s had these urges since basically preschool age and many people would say, “Well, there’s no way.” Well, this is, in fact, very true. This is where, in my caseload, somebody like a serial killer, Phil Hughes, who in the second grade, is breaking into his classroom and mutilating the girls’ dolls that they had inside that classroom. And he’s admitting to psychologists. He would see, in essence, female mannequins in his head and commit violence against those mannequins. This type of proclivity, as Scott used that term, does manifest itself at a very young age in some of these males, considering how pervasive Scott’s criminal behavior was. He’s offending on his two younger sisters. He’s offending on his own daughters. This is a predator.

 Scott, at least from what Bre has said so far, is focused in on a closed victim pool. Victims that he has access to, has control over, has groomed. But I also wonder, considering how pervasive Scott’s proclivities are. Is there the possibility that maybe he is offended outside of the family? And Bre, do you have any information along those lines?

Bre:  I don’t, specifically. However, when Scott goes off to jail, I get a call from Michelle about a week later, and she tells me that she had been cleaning the house. At this point, she knows Scott’s probably not coming home for a while. And the house wasn’t dirty, but it was cluttered, so she was trying to get rid of some of his stuff and clean things up. And she found a piece of paper, and it looked like it was like a server’s pad where you would take someone’s order when you would go to a restaurant. It had a guest check, and she had no idea where this paper came from. She was not a server. Nobody that she knew was a server. However, she recognizes the handwriting on this guest check. She recognizes the handwriting as Scott’s handwriting.

 And this note says, and I quote, “I stabbed the smaller one in her neck. They threw me off the ship. I can’t move my arms. I can’t speak my name. I can’t recognize my face. I haven’t slept in months. The sky mocks me with its emptiness.”

Yeardley:  Jeez.

Bre:  And Michelle is like, “I have no idea what this is, but I think you need to come and get it.” And I was like, “I’m on my way.” So, I drove straight over there. I took photos of it, impounded it, and then I ensured that Scott’s DNA was in CODIS. And this is one of those things that I keep thinking, one day I’m going to hear something more about this and I think we all have those interactions where we go, “Mm, this isn’t the last we’re going to see of you.”

 And when I went to pick up that note, Michelle tells me, “Oh, and look what I’ve been finding.” And she shows me this basket full of knives. She must have had 50 knives in this basket. And I’m like, “What is this?” And she said, “Well, as I’ve been cleaning, I have been finding knives stashed all over my house.” She said, “I had no idea that these even existed.” They were shoved in the couch cushions. They were shoved in shelves. They were literally all over her house. In fact, she tells me one of them was taped to up under the kitchen table, which was where we were sitting with Scott to do our interview.

Yeardley:  Oh, my God.

Bre:  And the hair on the back of my neck was straight up. It was that feeling like, “I don’t like this. I don’t like him. I don’t like this situation, that evil presence.” And then knowing all those feelings on top of he had access to a butcher knife taped up underneath the kitchen table at any point was super creepy.

Paul:  Well, Bre, as you were talking about sitting across the table from him, and his hands are clenched and his biceps are being flexed, and you thought Scott is purposely trying to contain himself. He’s trying to contain himself, in my opinion, from reaching for that knife.

Bre:  Yeah. When I spoke with Lisa at the conclusion of everything, she and I had a conversation.

Yeardley:  And this is Aunt Lisa.

Bre:  Aunt Lisa. And she tells me that she was relieved to find out that we had acted so quickly because she felt like Scott was going to murder the whole family. And she says this in a very matter of fact way, just chills.

Yeardley:  Wow.

[Break 3]

Yeardley:  I’m going to ask you, Paul, because I feel like you’re our profiler on staff here. It’s curious to me that Scott is hiding multiple knives between couch cushions, under tables. What do you make of that?

Paul:  Well, part of assessing that behavior is there’s an assessment taking Scott’s psychology out of context. If you’re just looking at, he’s positioning knives throughout the house, it tends to indicate he’s wanting to have quick access to this deadly weapon. Now, why is he doing that? Is there a certain paranoia going on within Scott’s head, but within context and this is where Bre’s bringing up this guest check note that Scott wrote, and he talks about stabbing a little one in the neck. Now, that, in my opinion, Scott is expressing a part of his fantasy and is the positioning of the knives, something that is more feeding Scott’s fantasy, knowing that he has this deadly weapon that he’s fantasizing on using at any point within the house.

 And it’s hard right now with the information to assess well what exactly is going on in Scott’s mind by positioning the knives. It may be both. There may be a self-defense aspect. Scott may be having homicidal violence fantasies against his family, or he may be in a position where Scott is now sexually assaulting one of his family members. And no matter where that sexual assault occurs in the residence, he would have access to this deadly weapon to be able to live out his fantasy versus having to stop the sexual act and get up and try to track down a knife. So, I can see multiple scenarios within Scott’s head as to why these knives are positioned.

 And when Bre starts talking about how Lisa mentions she had a concern that Scott was going to kill the entire family, there’s a reason Lisa is saying that. And it looks like Scott has set up the residence in order to possibly do that at any moment in time.

Bre:  And interestingly too, with Scott, once we handcuffed him and walked him outside, it happened to be that one of our helicopters flew over the house. It was just by chance. And he says, “Are they with you?” And I’m like, “No.” He’s like, “Oh, I didn’t think I was that important.” And I said, “Yeah and a helicopter wouldn’t be something that we would be using for this.” And he said, “Okay.” And then a little bit of time goes by, and a car with dark tinted windows drove by, and he goes, “Are they with you?” And I’m like, “Nope.” And at that moment, I realize he is sizing us up. He’s trying to figure out how many people we have, how close they are, what kind of manpower we have.

 And he is doing the calculations in his head, like, “Can I get away with this?” And it was little comments here and there. And it was funny because I was there with my supervisor, and I said, “Hey, corporal, do you want me to start on the paperwork?” And he goes, “No, we can worry about that later.” He did not want me to walk away because he was feeling the same thing I was. I think if Scott thought he could get away with something, he was going to take that opportunity. I think that was his thought the whole time that we were in contact with him.

Yeardley:  Yeah. Bre, you said Scott worked in tech. Did you actually get access to his computer?

Bre:  So, I asked Jennifer if Scott had taken any photographs of her, anything like that. And she said, “No.” And she even asked him on the call, “Dad, do you have any photographs of me? Did you take any pictures of me while I was sleeping or things that I didn’t know about?” And he denied that he did. He had a room in the house that he kept locked away from everybody, even Michelle. So, of course I told her, “Well, you can do whatever you want in your own home. And if that means kicking the door down, then have fun.” I didn’t have a nexus for a search warrant, so I wasn’t able to do that myself. But I encouraged her to get into that room and start going through the computers, and if she found anything, to call me.

 Michelle found 10 flash drives in addition to his computers. A lot of them were password protected, and the ones that weren’t, she, at the time that we spoke, said she just didn’t have the nerve to plug them in to see what he had on them. So that was one I never did get a full answer to unfortunately.

Dave:  Those flash drives can be a pandora’s box that you never can unsee. So, I understand.

Bre:  Absolutely.

Dan:  At some point too, Scott’s realizing that his girls, that they’re going to be of age, and they’re going to leave the house at some point. So, what’s Scott going to do when he doesn’t have access to victims? He’s going to go find new victims.

Yeardley:  Oh, God, that’s terrifying.

Paul:  Predators go to where the prey is at, and when they no longer have prey inside the house, they’re going to go outside the house.

Bre:  I’m not even totally convinced that there isn’t something out there that we don’t know about as well. Scott was in the military. He traveled for work. He was in a lot of different states doing a lot of different things. His wife often didn’t know. Well, he’s got to travel for this. And I don’t really know exactly where he went, and so I’m not totally convinced that there aren’t victims out there. Maybe he was fantasizing. I think that’s certainly possible. But I also wouldn’t be totally shocked if I got a CODIS hit one day.

Yeardley:  So, Bre, you have a mountain of evidence against Scott. Does he go to trial or does he take a deal?

Bre:  Scott pled guilty, and he is currently serving 25 years. He doesn’t get out until June 6, 2044.

Yeardley:  Does Scott serve every day of his sentence?

Bre:  So far, that’s what it looks like. I’m not sure entirely if he’ll get out early or any gain time or anything like that. But as it stands right now, he’s been in for five years and he’s got another 20 to go.

Yeardley:  What about the family? I’m hoping, I’m just hoping that there’s a measure of relief, even though there’s so much healing that needs to be done for all of the victims, from Scott’s own sisters to his daughters. It’s just staggering.

Bre:  Yeah. So, I know that Michelle went on to get a good job. I actually heard from the state attorney’s office, a state attorney that was working the case with me. She told me that Michelle had gotten a job and she was doing well. She had run into her and that the girls were doing well. These people come into our lives for a brief moment, but they never really leave, they linger, and I think about them often, but it’s such a balance because I don’t know if I’m the cause or I could be a cause of bringing back bad memories. So, I never want to reach out and say, how are you doing? Because then now I’m bringing up all the bad memories that they’re trying to forget.

 So, I have a couple victim’s families that will reach out to me and say, “Hey, you know, we’re doing great and send me pictures.” And I love that. I never did talk to Michelle afterwards. I got the information thirdhand, but from my understanding, they were doing good. And I’m happy for her because she deserves that. I know she had a lot on her shoulders with trying to support her family after all of this. So, it was really nice to hear that she had gotten a good job and that she was doing well.

Yeardley:  That’s amazing.

Dave:  It just highlights the complexity of presenting these cases is that, I mean, what a great way to highlight Jennifer and Rachel and the two aunts. Their courage coming forward prevented Scott from doing this to other kids, and that’s the big win here. But at the same time, when we tell these stories, we get emails from past victims of whatever crime they were a victim of, and they have takeaways from these cases. There’s something that resonates within them. That’s why we tell these cases. We try to be very sensitive and respectful, but they’re graphic. But at the same time, the payoff is we’re educating people like, “Oh, this is what it looked like in Scott’s family. And, oh, there’s like three things that are similar to my situation. I should come forward.” Those are the wins that we get on this podcast.

Yeardley:  Yeah, for sure. You and Michelle and Jennifer were such a force in rallying around Jennifer. And then her call with Scott, getting him to make all those admissions, is extraordinary. I can see why you said at the top of this episode that the kind of work that you did nine years investigating special victims is so rewarding. So, what about this case in particular stands out for you? Because I’m sure it’s not the only one that sticks with you. I just know from knowing Dave for the last decade that it seems like you’d really never forget any of them. So, what about this one?

Bre:  So, I think this one was unique in that Scott was Jennifer’s biological father. We get a lot of the stepdad or mom’s boyfriend or the creepy uncle. The biological dad is a little bit more rare. And so, this one was just more egregious to me. And I think, really, the bottom line is just how amazing Jennifer did in this whole scenario. She finally got the courage to say, “No, this is not happening anymore.” And then she got the courage to face her father on this call, and it was just so powerful to see, to have a front seat to that. It was really amazing, really, like she is amazing.

Yeardley:  That’s incredible. This is a job well done. Thank you so much for sharing that with us today.

Dave:  Nice work, Bre.

Dan:  Yes, very good.

Bre:  Thank you.

[music]

Paul:  Yeah, thanks, Bre for bringing that case forward.

Yeardley:  Small Town Dicks was created by Detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yeardley Smith.Our senior editor is Soren Begin and our editors are Christina Bracamontes and Erin Phelps. Our associate producers are the Real Nick Smitty and Erin Gaynor. Gary Scott is our executive producer, and Logan Heftel is our production manager. Our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell.And our social media maven is Monika Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at @smalltowndicks, we love hearing from you.

 Oh, our groovy theme song was composed by John Forrest. Also, if you’d like to support the making of this podcast, hop on over to patreon.com/smalltowndickspodcast. There, for a small subscription fee, you’ll find exclusive content you can’t get anywhere else.

 The transcripts of this podcast are thanks to SpeechDocs and they can be found on our website, smalltowndicks.com. Thank you SpeechDocs for this wonderful service. Small Town Dicks is an Audio 99 Production. Small Town Fam, thanks for listening. Nobody is better than you.

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