Yeardley: Hey, Small Town Fam. It’s Yeardley. How are you guys? Where are you guys? I hope wherever you are, all is well. Today, we’re going to take you behind the scenes of a hostage negotiation. The suspect has barricaded himself in an attic and is threatening to kill police if he can get a clear shot at them. This episode highlights one of the extraordinary aspects of being a detective. And that is setting aside all judgment of the person sitting in front of you, or in this case, barricading himself in an attic and threatening to kill you, setting aside all of your feelings about that person so that you can stay safe, gather evidence, and ultimately get justice for the victims. New guest, retired Detective Constable Ron is on the microphone today and he gives us an up close and very personal account of what it takes to talk someone off the ledge, so to speak, when the stakes couldn’t be higher.

This episode has everything you’ll never hear, on the evening news. Here is Deadlock.

Hi there, I’m Yeardley.

Dan: I’m Dan.

Dave: I’m Dave.

Paul: And I’m Paul.

Yeardley: And this is Small Town Dicks.

Dan: Dave and I are identical twins-

Dave: –And retired detectives from Small Town, USA.

Paul: And I’m a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

Dan: Between the three of us, we’ve investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Dave: Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare, personal account of how they solved the crime.

Paul: Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

Dan: And although we’re aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved-

Dave: -out of respect for what they’ve been through.

Unison: Thank you.

Yeardley: Today on Small Town Dicks, we have the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Dan: Good morning, team.

Yeardley: Good morning, you. We have Detective Dave.

Dave: Hello, everyone.

Yeardley: Hello, sunshine. And we have the [laughs] one and only Paul Holes.

Paul: Hey, hey, how’s it going?

Yeardley: Hey, hey. Oh, for our listeners, it’s just been a while since we all gathered. I miss my A team. Sadly, we’re again, not all in the same geographical location, but I’ll take the Zoom all day, any day. And Small Town Fam, we are so pleased to welcome a new guest to the podcast, retired Detective Constable Ron.

Ron: Hi, thank you for having me.

Yeardley: We’re so delighted that you’re here with us today. It’s always great to hear from new as well as returning guests. I think what’s Interesting, a lot of what all of y’all do in law enforcement is similar. There are so many commonalities, but each and every one of your journeys is entirely different. And we’re grateful that you have agreed to come and tell us a little bit about what it has been like for you.

Ron: Well, thank you.

Yeardley: So, Ron, since this is your first time, we’d love to get a little thumbnail biography of your career in law enforcement before you retired.

Ron: Yeah, I started policing in 1984. I was fortunate. I was quite young when I got hired. I was 21 years old. And I like to think that my enthusiasm made up for my lack of experience. [Yeardley laughs] And I was fortunate to get hired at my hometown. No other police service would hire me. [Yeardley laughs] Turned out to be a very good move for me. You start off walking the beat, and I did a lot of beat walking. And you get to know people and get out of your shell, and you’re forced to have interactions, that sort of thing. So, get used to people staring at you when you’re walking around in uniform carrying a gun, which is hard to get used to initially, especially as a younger officer, but spent in total 20 years in patrol.

But 15 years of that was on our tactical team. We refer to as an emergency response team, like the SWAT team that you would have in the States as well. In the area I police too. It’s a penitentiary town, so there’s a lot of penitentiaries in the area. We have a lot of released prisoners or ex-inmates that stay in the area as well and their families. So, there’s a lot of repeat customers.

Yeardley: I’m curious that you have multiple penitentiaries in your town. Does that seem unusual to you guys? I feel like a town can handle one penitentiary. That seems like enough. No?

Dave: I think it goes both ways. Like, you could have an area that has a workforce that all have training and certifications that have to do with this. And then you find an area that there’s actually room to build multiple prisons. So, to me, it makes sense to have them all located in the same area. I’m guessing there’s different security levels at each of these facilities.

Ron: Correct. There’s different levels, maximum, minimum, medium security as well.

Dave: So, you typically wouldn’t have two supermax prisons even in the same state. They spread those out. But if you’ve got different levels of community corrections to local supervision all the way up to real prison, then it makes sense to me to have them all in the same area.

Yeardley: Interesting. That makes good sense. Okay, Ron. So multiple prisons, repeat offenders, and a lot of people who get released, it seems, stay in the area as well.

Ron: They do. The families relocate and there’s a good support system for the families. So, there are a lot of reasons for them to stay in the area. So, it makes for an interesting mix. It’s also a university town, so we have a nice mixture of persons to deal with.

Yeardley: Wow, you have it all. You really have it all.

Ron: [laughs] And it’s right on a lovely lake and lots of water. So, yeah, I’m again, very fortunate to get hired in this area too as well.

Yeardley: I love it. So, Ron, please tell us how this case came to you.

Ron: At this point in my career, I was in our training branch, so involved in training officers, new officers, experienced officers, and I received a phone call saying, we need a crisis negotiator. We have a subject we’re trying to arrest, and he has barricaded himself in a townhouse in an area that police are quite familiar with. And because it’s referred to as a barricaded subject, and evidence was that he had a gun as well, that we will not enter the residence. It will be negotiations. So that’s part of the policy, part of the practice in Canada as well. So, a fellow that was well known to me by the name of Tim had an outstanding warrant. Tim had a long history of drug dealing, was seen the last couple of years carrying guns, collecting drug debts, scaring off other drug dealers.

And one of the charges in this particular case was extortion, which is not a common charge, but trying to extort drug money from other persons in the area. So, the police were actively looking for him. And my understanding was that the street crime unit had received information that he was at this unit. And when the tactical team attended, the tenants came out of the townhouse and said, “Yes, Tim is in the residence and he does have a gun.” So, at that point, the tackle team contained the residence and negotiators were called out.

Yeardley: Did Tim know the residents who exited the house?

Ron: He did, actually. One of the ladies that lived in the residence was friends with his girlfriend, and I think he was using it to hide out. Wasn’t really determined whether or not he forced his way in or was just using it as a temporary residence to hide because he couldn’t go home knowing there was a warrant for him.

Dave: Ron, do you get the feeling that this is one of those situations where somebody became aware of Tim’s presence at this townhouse and later sneaks a call to the police? “Hey, I know you guys are looking for Tim?” He’s been at this house for the last hour and I just left. He’s still there?”

Ron: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that expression of honor among thieves, I’ve never seen that exist. Money is a motivator. [Yeardley laughs]

Dave: Well, and it’s interesting that Tim developed some extortion charges because of who Tim is threatening with guns. In the drug and crime culture, it is very rare for other criminals to call in a crime and report a robbery or an intimidation or menacing with a gun because they go, “What kind of interactions you have with Tim?” Well, he and I are drug dealers. So, it just gives you an idea of Tim is probably believed when he threatens people so much so that they will say, “I’m not going to worry about my drug dealing business. I need to call the police and get some protection.”

Ron: Yeah, that’s very true.

Yeardley: Ron, you said Tim was well known to you?

Ron: Yeah, I think I knew him when he was 10 or 11 and used to talk to each other on a first name basis. And then when he got older, got into the drug culture and fairly rough upbringing, but not the worst, but he just decided to go in that direction, I guess.

Yeardley: And how old is Tim when you encounter him in this barricaded house situation?

Ron: He is 37 years old at this point and so he’s quite experienced in the criminal activity.

Yeardley: And what was he doing as a 10- or 11-year-old? Were you encountering him at that time as a police officer or because you both lived in the same town?

Ron: More I worked in that area, so, if there were a bunch of kids in that area shooting, baskets or something, basketball, I’d pop out of the cruiser, talk to them, shoot a couple of baskets with them. He’d be one of those persons. Or if it’s a road hockey in Canada, we love hockey. If there’s a road hockey game or something, I’d pop out of the cruiser and grab a stick or something. Just trying to make that personal connection. Like, okay, we’re not all bad. I know that a lot of youth in that area, once they hit a certain age, they stop calling you police or in my case, Ron, and start referring to us as pigs. And it’s like, well, that’s a learned behavior. So, I’m trying to at least delay that portion of it, build some sort of communication.

Yeardley: Interesting.

Ron: Yeah. In this case, not always successful.

Yeardley: And when did Tim begin his criminal career?

Ron: He was still a youth and I know that there was a lot of thefts in there, some robberies, low-end robberies, using force to obtain something. And he had been in and out of the prison system. Nothing too serious. I don’t think he did penitentiary time here. Sentenced beyond two years. You do penitentiary time in Canada. I don’t think he had been to the penitentiary yet, but in and out of the jail system, the court system providing lots of jobs for police and lawyers and courts and that sort of thing.

Dave: Frequent flyer.

Ron: Frequent flyer, absolutely.

Yeardley: So, on this day, Tim has now taken things. He’s really levelled up. He’s taken it up a notch by barricading himself in this townhouse with a deadly weapon. And you all now need to deal with this.

Ron: Correct? Yeah. It’s a lovely summer day and it’s warm out, it’s not raining. It’s in a populated area. So, a lot of townhouses, a lot of persons around. So, once the police are there, it does draw a crowd for sure. There’s a number of police officers containing the area as well as closing off the streets in the area. I think it started at about noon and I arrived at about 01:00 PM and spoke to the incident commander, who’s in charge of the scene, makes all the decisions. Not sure if it works the same way in the States. But the nice part, as a negotiator, I make no decisions. I put all the decisions on the incident commander.

Dave: Same with us.

Ron: Okay.

Yeardley: So, where do you begin with Tim? How does the communication start?

Ron: There’s a bit of a slow start, but because it wasn’t his residence and because there wasn’t extenuating circumstances where the police had to force the door open because there was containment, he couldn’t go anywhere. There was some risk of him going up in the attic or punching out some walls. There were seven different townhouses attached where he could have had access to other townhouses. So, there was a lot of police containing, making sure had to evacuate all the other residents as well. So, once the tactical team was advised there was a warrant in effect, so a Feeney warrant, which is a warrant to enter, and there’s also an arrest warrant. So, two different warrants that now it becomes a lawful entry. There’s a tactic called breach and delay. You breach the door and they called out, there was no response, they threw in Eyeballs, remote cameras, and still no response.

Yeardley: I’m like, Eyeballs?

Ron: Yeah.

Dave: These SWAT teams have really cool tools, [Ron laughs] like throw robots that you can throw, that can climb stairs and land like 30ft off a building they land and they just drive off and go wherever you want. Really great tools.

Ron: One of the more fun aspects of being on the tactical team is that you get to do the fun stuff. So, you get to arrest people and just throw in a statement and then walk away.

[laughter]

Ron: Whereas your detectives have to do all the paperwork.

Dave: Right.

Dave: So, your tactics to breach and, you know, open things up, let him know, “Hey, we’re not going away.” Is that kind of a standard protocol that your team and your experience, you went through that, “Hey, we’re going to try this first. We’re going to let it cook for however long,” and then we’re going to go to tactic number two specific to this situation. What was the strategy?

Ron: So, they threw in the Eyeballs, which would give them a good view of the interior, as much as they could, called out, there was nothing. K9 attended at the scene. And if you’ve ever had the luxury of working with K9, they are just an invaluable tool.

Yeardley: Dan was a K9 cop.

Ron: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. So, well, hats off. Hats off to K9 officers because it’s just so invaluable. Total side note, but I did put on a bite suit once, and it was the most intimidating experience I’ve ever had.

[laughter]

Yeardley: I believe it.

Dan: I’ve been bit probably a thousand times by dogs.

Dave: Oh, yeah. Dan. What’s the consideration for a K9 officer in this situation? You know, you’ve got an armed subject. There are limitations. I know, but I’ll let you walk us through it.

Dan: Well, obviously you want to know the floor plan of this house.

Ron: Yes.

Dan: Where are routes of egress? How much real estate can we buy with our eyes? First, you guys throw Eyeballs in there, and we can buy some real estate there, and then you just slowly inch your way through. And I’m sure a lot of departments are like this, but I would never send my dog on a suicide mission.

Dave: No.

Dan: So, if Tim is in a back bedroom and we know he’s armed, I’m not going to send my dog in after Tim, and I could have a sergeant command me to send my dog, and I could tell my sergeant, nope, not doing it. There were no repercussions for me. I got to control that whole scene when it came to the K9 stuff. So, yeah, I think the main consideration here is Tim’s got a gun and we might use the dog to search. But I’m not going to just send my dog off leash and have him seek and destroy. It’s a suicide mission, and I’ll say this, sometimes I could give my dog Feedo a command to bark, and sometimes that was enough to get people to give up.

Ron: That’s very true. It has worked in the past, actually, as well. But in this particular case, unfortunately, it didn’t. What we knew about Tim is that he was good at hiding. In the past, he was found hiding in piles of laundry. Another time, he was hiding in the basement behind a dresser, but he had cut out portions of the dresser, so the drawers still worked, but he was hiding in that little cavity of the dresser which was pushed up against the wall.

Yeardley: Oh, wow.

Ron: Yeah.

Yeardley: So, are you saying has the verbal communication ceased and now you all have gone into the house to try to apprehend Tim?

Ron: Yep. So, at this point, the tactical team has their foot in the door. They have the living room area, and they were able to clear that with the dog calling out and using lights and cameras, that sort of thing. I don’t know how long it took for them to clear the main floor of the basement, but then not found. Tim is still in there for sure, because he couldn’t have escaped. And that’s when they proceeded upstairs. And at the very top of the stairs, before you enter the bedroom or bathrooms, there’s an attic hatch. And the officers noticed insulation, little pieces of insulation on the carpet above the hatch. So, it doesn’t necessarily, at this point, mean he’s there. You still have to clear the rest of the unit, which they did. And once they safely remove the sliding hatch, they called out.

And at that point, Tim starts yelling to them, saying, if you show your head, I’m going to shoot you. Show your head and I will shoot you. I have a gun. Not afraid to use it.

Yeardley: So, Tim is saying to the officers, if you pop your head up into this attic, I’m going to shoot you.

Ron: Absolutely.

Dave: Have you arrived on scene by this point? And at what point do you start doing the Jedi Master negotiation stuff?

Ron: [laughs] Yeah, I have arrived, and we get information that contact was made. The other piece of the puzzle is that in the past, Tim has been violent towards police. So, he’s also hesitant to give up peacefully because he’s afraid of retribution or something, which wouldn’t have happened. But his experience is not positive because he’s always been assaultive towards police during the arrest. So, appropriate force is used in that case. So, once they establish containment where he is, then we try to establish communication. So, go through a process of trying to lock down phones, that sort of thing, but that’s not entirely successful. But eventually, a throw phone is placed up in the attic.

Yeardley: And what’s that? What’s a throw phone?

Ron: So it is a phone that will ring directly to the command post as well. So, the only persons that can talk are the two people at either end. The communication can be heard in the command post. So, the incident commander can hear the negotiations as well as others in the command post. But the only person talking would be myself. My secondary negotiator would be there listening, passing notes, that sort of thing. But I’m the only one communicating at that point.

Yeardley: So just you and Tim have basically access to this line.

Ron: Exactly. And you only throw in so much throw phone, then you can measure. Okay, there’s eight feet of cord, so he has to be eight feet of the entrance.

Yeardley: Oh, so the phone is connected to a cord. It really is like a really sophisticated two cups with a string.

Ron: [laughs] Good analogy. Absolutely. Yeah, a very strong covered metal casing wire. It’s pretty much bomb proof in the Pelican case.

Paul: Hey, Ron, this attic that Tim is in, is this a finished attic? He can move around freely or is he balancing on the rafters?

Ron: He’s balancing on the rafters and enjoying the pink insulation. And it’s August, so he’s cooking. He’s cooking for sure. And when they first initially threw the phone to Tim, he threw it back, thinking he was going to get shocked by picking up the phone. It’s in a case. He had to open the case and it was ringing, it would ring constantly. So, a ringing telephone is, you know, very irritating. He was encouraged by the tactical team that nothing’s going to happen until you pick up the phone. And eventually, the second time, he finally picked up the phone. So, the initial conversation with him is basically him telling me repeatedly to fuck off. And that’s how the conversation starts. And he kept repeating that in this higher pitched voice.

And I know that this is the case for all of you, but you develop a bit of an interesting sense of humor in policing. So, it was hard not to laugh because he so reminded me of Joe Pesci. That high pitched swearing type voice.

Yeardley: That’s funny and so specific that Tim sounds like Joe Pesci.

Ron: Yep.

Yeardley: So are you back at the command post on the other line of this wired throw phone?

Ron: I am back in the command post and Tim is in the attic with the throw phone. And the nice part about having a direct line is that there’s no radio frequency interruptions and it’s a very clear communication. But it was difficult because he was encouraged by about 200, I’ll call them fans, tenants in the area that were yelling to him, “Tim, hang in there. The police are doing this.”

Yeardley: So, you’re saying outside of the townhouse there’s a gaggle of people encouraging Tim to keep doing what he’s doing?

Ron: Absolutely. There’s a field and a fire lane, and it was a warm summer night. So, because it was dragging on the fans, the persons watching, spectators brought out lawn chairs, ordered pizza, and were drinking beer.

Yeardley: Shut up.

Ron: When I popped out of the command post at one point, it’s like, “’I think there’s about 200 people.”

Yeardley: Oh, my God. And how long are you, Ron, on the phone with Tim before he decides he’s too hot, sitting in this attic and he’s going to come out? Or does that happen?

Ron: I start at about 07:00 PM for negotiations with him, and it ends sometime around midnight before he actually comes out. The upside was by that point, some of the crowd had dispersed and he was getting less encouragement. But it did take a long time. Part of it, I think, is saving face, but the other piece is he did not want to go back to jail, but he was going to jail for sure.

Yeardley: Ron, do you recall how many little short phone calls you actually had with Tim? He would give you a tidbit of information and say, “Fuck you, and hang up.”

Ron: I wouldn’t be surprised if there was around 30 short phone calls. Just the constant ringing, slamming the phone down, or F bombs.

Dan: Your conversation with Tim starts with a bunch of FUs, a volley of FUs to you. At some point, he changes his demeanor. And I’m sure that had a lot to do with the way you were speaking to him. Can you run us through this progression of your negotiation?

Ron: Yeah. Tim did not recognize me or know who I was. There’s no recollection of me dealing with him when he was a youth. But that probably worked out for the better, I think. But he kept demanding something to drink. I might go into a seizure. And I said, “What does that mean? Are you a diabetic?” “No, just. It’s so hot up here. I need something to drink.” And I went into, I said, “I understand you have a gun. Are you familiar with guns? I don’t want to see you hurt yourself.” I’m trying to extract information what sort of gun that he has. And he wouldn’t disclose much other than he said it was a Desert Eagle.

Yeardley: The guys are all sort of nodding and cocking their heads. What does a Desert Eagle mean?

Dan: It’s a hand cannon.

Yeardley: It’s a large caliber gun.

Dave: .50 caliber. It puts big holes in people.

Paul: I’ve held one, I’ve never shot one. It is heavy. It is an impractical handgun. And it’s very unusual for somebody on the street to have a Desert Eagle.

Ron: Mm-hmm. So, whether he had it, I don’t know. But there was indication from the tenants that had left that he had a handgun. So again, all the precautions are taken. Tim kept saying that “If you don’t get me some of the drink, I’m going to shoot myself.” Which again, we have to do everything possible to prevent that as well. What made it difficult initially too for me was the instant commander did not want to give him a bottle of water without some exchange. Eventually, I was able to talk the instant commander into allowing that without exchange for anything. And it actually went long ways to building rapport. And it opened up a line of communication to him. And again, keeping in mind I don’t respect his individual. I don’t even like this individual. But that’s not a bearing in this case at all.

My goal is to have Tim come out peacefully without incident.

Dave: Ron, in my experience with negotiations, it’s this huge chess game and it’s really, really odd when you’re in this. And I just was hoping you could speak to what was the pattern with Tim on these series of phone calls over hours? I imagine it’s like most negotiations go.

Ron: Yeah, it was a lot of hang ups, a lot of FUs. But initially, get me a drink of water, I want to talk to my girlfriend, this sort of thing. So, he’s making demands. But every time I called and he picked up, it would be just a little bit longer conversation. So, it was starting. And regardless of what he says to me, I’m not going to be offended. What does that matter? Once Tim started making demands that, “Okay, okay so this is good.” Part of it is based on my training that if he wants water, it means that he doesn’t want to harm himself. Like, “Okay, that goes long ways.” One of the big things he wanted to do was talk to his girlfriend Michelle. And he kept talking with him.

“My body is sore,” but he’s lying on a rafters, right? So, he’s not super comfortable at this point. Tim doesn’t want to go back to jail. He asked me what the charges were. I did not tell him that it was extortion. That sounded a little too heavy to me. And I didn’t really have the details. Turns out probably I should have because he realized a breach charge, there’s no way the cops are all here for just a breach charge or something more.

Yeardley: And the breach charges, I’m holed up in this house.

Ron: You’re released on bail. So, a breach of a bail.

Dave: Like a violation of release agreement.

Ron: Yes. So, it was more than just that. And he was right. So, I said, well, there are weapon charges. One thing we were taught, if you do tell a lie, you have to maintain that lie. So, I tried not to do any of that. It’s just too difficult to remember it during the course of the conversation and Tim is sober at this point. I don’t know if he had ingested drugs prior to going up to the attic. I suspect he probably had, but given the length of time, I think that whatever was in his system was probably wore out. That probably helped the communication portion of it too as well. The instant commander said, “Yeah, we’ll let him talk to his girlfriend before he goes to jail.” So, I was able to give Tim that. So, I want to talk to my brother.

Tim said it was his best friend. I said, well, I can’t make that promise until I run it by my boss. Which is a typical line. And the boss being the instant commander. So, I don’t become the bad guy, my boss does. Right. Comments like, “Well, your boss is asshole. It’s like, well.

[laughter]

Yeardley: Ron, is there anything in the course of negotiation that you absolutely would not give the barricaded subject?

Ron: Good question. I went on a course and it was this negotiator trainer that was just renowned national, and he said, “What can you never offer someone that you’re negotiating with?” And the answer is essentially nothing. He says, “Would you not give them cocaine in order to get two hostages back?” It’s like, “Yeah, I probably would.” If it was an incident with hostages, then pretty much anything’s on the table as far as what you will give in order to get. So, partway through the incident, Tim’s brother and his brother was there the whole time outside somewhere.

Yeardley: Was Tim’s brother also a criminal?

Ron: He was. And I had dealings with his brother in the past as well. Tim’s brother was a wannabe musician. He had a guitar. He thought he could sing. He created some recording, and he convinced the detectives to give Tim the CD that he made of his own music to convince Tim to come out. So, lessons learned and debriefing. The tactical team inside played the recording and shut it off very quickly because it was basically and then, I’ll quote some lyrics here. But basically, it was “Fuck the police, fuck the police on a guitar.”

Yeardley: Oh great.

Ron: Yeah. So, lessons learned, prelisten to any recordings before they’re set. [Yeardley laughs] But keep it in mind, the officers have been there for about nine hours and there’s some fatigue happening for sure and trying to end it as quickly as possible and that just didn’t seem to help. As it got later, one of the things that we were taught was, well, develop a rapport, if you can, with forensic psychiatrists to bounce ideas off, but also should they commit self-harm that have we done everything possible. So, I had developed a connection with a forensic psychiatrist in the area who dealt with persons in the penitentiary.

And I was able to call him and not only did he offer advice, he attended the scene and a little different, but he actually sat in the negotiator cell with me and had a set of earphones and the instant commander was fine with that. He doesn’t have a mic, he doesn’t speak, but he can listen to the conversations.

Yeardley: The psychiatrist can’t communicate with Tim directly.

Ron: You can’t communicate directly. Should it ever go to an inquest, I think that would beneficial that we do everything possible to prevent self-harm. Because that’s the only way Tim was going to get heard at that point. And the forensic psychiatrist came up with a really good idea and said, “Tell Tim that the insulation is toxic, that’s a very good idea.” And so called him back and I said, “Tim, I have a medical doctor, a forensic psychiatrist is here sitting with me and he tells me that the insulation is toxic and it could have long term effects.” Tim had a young son, so I was able to say, “You need to be there for your son. You won’t be in jail very long.”

And his girlfriend, he had a girlfriend of a month, he said he loved her, so he was able to talk about that. But when Tim said, “Well, yeah, I am itchy and I’m getting red welts, I was able to say, “Well, that’s the first sign of it becoming toxic.” Let me think about it. He hung up. After he hung up, I asked the forensic psychiatrist, is the insulation toxic? And his response was, “I have no idea.”

[laughter]

But it did work, it did work. So of course, line insulation, you’re going to be itchy, you’re going to get some skin reaction. So, that was very helpful. He didn’t think that Tim would do any self-harm based on the conversation he was hearing, which was good. And that was about 9 o’clock at night. And the forensic psychiatrist, to his credit, after working all day, stay the whole time. He had trained us a little bit too as well, how to deal with certain persons, schizophrenic persons, that sort of thing. So, he’s a very good resource for us. Around this time, when Tim was getting tired, he’d be crying one minute, wanting to talk to his girlfriend, other times getting mad, start dropping the F bombs. But there was constant communication.

Frequent phone calls at this point, just frequent phone calls. A bit of an aside, but our air conditioning wasn’t working, so I was probably drinking too much water, which also meant that I had to use a bathroom. Our bathroom in the command post wasn’t working. So, a neighbor’s house next door that we had tapped into their phone system initially to try to get that connection working.

They were friendly, you know, a little apprehensive about police, but they were friendly, they were helpful. They allowed me to use their washroom. [Yeardley laughs] So, when I came out of the washroom, the mother is there and she has this parking ticket in her hand and she says, “Is there any chance at all that you can take care of this parking ticket?”

Yeardley: Shut up. [Ron laughs] Wow.

Ron: So I said, yeah, that sounds fair. So, when I got back to the command post, I just gave it to my instant commander and smiled. And I said, “I told her that you would take care of this.”

Yeardley: Oh, my God.

[laughter]

It’s not enough that you’re trying to protect her from this guy who has a deadly weapon and God knows what he’ll do. No, no, please fix my parking ticket.

Ron: Well, I did want to reuse the washroom if necessary, down the road, so I’m sure it got paid. I don’t know by whom. Not me. You find humor where you can sometimes.

Yeardley: So, what’s the final push do you think that gets Tim out of the attic and then I’m assuming you take him into custody, you take him down to the station. How does all that go?

Ron: Yeah, the final push is I promised him that I would ensure he got a can of coke, that he would be able to smoke some cigarettes and talk to his girlfriend before he got taken. I also said, “You’re not going to the station yet. You have to go to the hospital. We have to take you to the hospital.” Which it was the truth, you know, one, just to check his well being and two, for mental health purposes. But that was a bit of a selling point as well. And I think his brother had brought down other clothes for him or something, but it still took a while when Tim eventually came down. And we don’t use the word giving up right, it’s a coming out plan because giving up is failing on his end of it.

So, the coming out plan was you have to hang down from the rafters with your arms, they’ll help you down, you’ll be handcuffed in behind and searched. And he says, “Well, I want my drink right away.” It’s like not going to happen, Tim. Like you’re going to be searched first officer safety, that sort of thing.

Yeardley: Tim wants another bottle of water is what you’re saying.

Ron: Tim wants another bottle of water. He wants to have the coke and the smokes up in the attic. Not going to give him any flammables. And the pull of and I’m sure that the rest of the detectives found this helpful that a lot of the accused that we deal with are smokers and you can use that tool. The pull of the nicotine is a strong draw.

Dave: It works even better than iPads with teenagers.

Yeardley: What? That’s impossible.

[laughter]

Ron: I always kept a pack of smokes in my briefcase or whatever I carried with me too as well for that purpose. When Tim eventually came down, his girlfriend was there the whole time to the instant commander, I was in eyesight of him and any requests that he asked for, he gave me the thumbs up so I could say, “Yes, you’re going to have the cigarettes, yes, you’re going to have the cup of coffee. Yes, after being searched, you’ll be handcuffed in the front so you can have your can of coke. Yes, you can talk to your girlfriend at the scene.” At this point, it was around midnight and after Tim was searched, I walked to where he was.

He was sitting on the front stoop and girlfriend was there, he was handcuffed, he was drinking his pop, he was smoking his cigarettes, which I ensured that he got. I wanted to make sure promises, that sort of thing. And I actually thanked him for coming out and being cooperative and ending the incident peacefully. The forensic psychiatrist came with me, actually wanted to meet the individual as well. Didn’t say anything to him, but just part of his, I guess, reward to see the end of the incident too as well. The question usually comes up, well, “Why did you ensure that you carried out on the promises?” And interesting enough, less than two years later, very similar incident happened with Tim as well. And that one only lasted about an hour.

But again the officers were able to say, “Look, we’ve never lied to you, we’ve given you all your promises.” Same sort of thing happened where we’ll give you a can of coke and some smokes or that sort of thing. And again, not a good human being in that case. But still, it’s important to keep those lines of communication open, just makes the job easier.

Yeardley: Absolutely.

Dave: You have to play the long game with this. What I see going wrong with some officers is they take the job personally and they’re not able to separate. We want a quick, peaceful resolution to this. I don’t have to respect this suspect. This isn’t personal either. So why do I let my personal feelings get in the way of a successful resolution? It’s not about the negotiator. It’s not about the officer. It’s about this person in this certain headspace thinking about all the consequences of what they’re going to have to answer to once they’re put in handcuffs. That cops that lose sight of that tend to not do very well in investigations. They tend to not do very well in interviews and interrogations because they can’t get past themselves.

And you keeping the big picture in mind with Tim and this negotiation, realizing and understanding the likelihood of Tim and I having an interaction in the future is probably pretty good, given his behaviors when he’s free. So, there’s no use in trying to claim victory on this one negotiation. And ha, ha I lied to you, and we’re not going to give you any of that. What purpose does that serve? It just means the next time Tim barricades himself it’s going to be a huge headache for everybody.

Ron: Absolutely. Yeah. And again, as it turned out, less than two years later, actually, they called me for that one, But I was on my way for a training course at the police college, and they referred to it as the sequel.

Yeardley: Oh, God.

Dave: Tell Tim the mattress he’s sitting on is poison.

[laughter]

Yeardley: So, Ron, what was Tim ultimately charged with once you get him in handcuffs out of this barricaded subject situation?

Ron: So, some of the charges I found out that he was charged with utter threats to police, with threatening to kill the police, mischief not exceeding $5,000, which is damaging the police equipment, the camera, the breach of probation charge, robbery, the robbery, extortion charges, extortion on top of that, and forcible confinement, which prior to that, I think it was about two weeks prior, Tim had forced his way into another unit demanding drug payment for drugs that he had sold this couple. But Tim’s sentence in total was 19 months for everything. So, yeah, we have a bit of a lenient system at times in my country. 19 months later is about when Tim barricaded himself again.

Yeardley: Ron, even though this negotiation with Tim went really remarkably well, even though it was hours and hours, is there anything, as you reflected on it, that you would have done differently?

Ron: Absolutely. Some of the lessons learned for us in this case is they asked me where I wanted the command post. Well, I had the command post way too close to the crisis point. It should have been backed away. So, I wasn’t in direct view of the 200 people having a party in the background because I could hear them as well. At one point, I could hear Tim yelling through the attic to them. So that’s how loud he was yelling. He’d crawled up near the vents and was yelling back to them. So that was too close. There were a few other lessons learned from this one as well, but overall successful because it ended without incident.

Dave: Yeah. No cops hurt. Suspect is uninjured, perfect.

Ron: Absolutely.

Yeardley: And Ron, you said earlier that you never actually saw the gun, this giant Desert Eagle that Tim had. Does that mean it was never recovered?

Ron: Yeah, no gun or bullet was ever found. But I do think Tim had one and I think he was able to somehow drop it down through an opening which maybe would end up somewhere between the walls of the townhouse as well, but yeah, we never did find that.

Yeardley: So, Ron, how do you, after five hours of really high-pressure negotiation and it ends around midnight, how do you go home and decompress so that you can go to sleep? What do you do? Are you up for hours?

Ron: Yeah, great question. And absolutely I’m up for hours. In need of a beverage and to talk to somebody, but nobody [laughs] is up when I get home. All the other officers had work days, so they were not interested. So, where I live it’s fairly quiet, which is nice. I was able to grab a beverage, go for a walk and think about the incident. Perhaps things I could have done better, but just unwind because there’s no point for me at that point going straight to bed.

Yeardley: Right.

Ron: Broken sleep. Had to be back at work the next day at 8 o’clock in the morning. So, it wasn’t a whole lot of sleep there. But we were doing some training, so I was the only one working that day in the training branch. So, I had to be in for 8.

Yeardley: So intricate. So many things to think about.

Paul: Ron, it strikes me, I know you’ve gone through training and you’ve got your years of experience in law enforcement, but just sitting on this side listening to you, you have the perfect personality to be a negotiator. You’re sensitive, you’re empathetic, you have to bond with people you don’t care for, you know, you’ve had prior interactions with. And, I think the success in this case has a lot to do with you and how you kind of approach life and your career. So, great job.

Ron: Thank you, Paul.

Yeardley: Well said. Thank you so much for sharing that with us today.

[music]

Ron: You’re very welcome, Yeardley.

Dave: Great resolution, Ron. Textbook work right there.

Dan: Great job, Ron.

Ron: Thank you.

Yeardley: Small Town Dicks was created by Detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yeardley Smith. Our senior editor is Soren Begin and our editors are Christina Bracamontes and Erin Phelps. Our associate producers are the Real Nick Smitty and Erin Gaynor. Gary Scott is our executive producer and Logan Heftel is our production manager. Our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell. And our social media maven is Monika Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at @smalltowndicks, we love hearing from you.

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