Yeardley: Hey Small Town Fam, it’s Yeardley. I want to remind you that if you want access to bonus episodes and regular episodes a day early and ad free and our community forum and other behind-the-scenes goodies, you got to go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and then in the top righthand corner, hit that little tab that says join. And then listen to the end of today’s episode for a sneak peek at today’s new bonus episode.

Hey Small Town Fam, it’s Yeardley. How are you guys? I hope you’re all well. I’m so happy you’re here with me. We have such an interesting case for you today. The story is as old as time and yet I don’t think you’re going to feel any closer to understanding why people commit murders like this by the end of it than you did before you pushed play on today’s episode. Because I certainly didn’t and it got me thinking about something I’ve pondered a lot since hosting this podcast. And that is how come we’re so bad at being honest with each other and ourselves. This failing as human beings leads to so many terrible outcomes as in the case we follow today where the suspect abdicated his primary responsibility as a person in the world, which I believe is looking after our own well-being.

But this guy, he didn’t do that. Instead, he blamed everyone else for his misery, let it fester and metastasize, and then somehow convinced himself there was only one way out and that it would actually work. Like I said, a story as old as time. Here is “Lie, Deny, Justify.”

Hi there. I’m Yeardley.

Dan: I’m Dan.

Dave: I’m Dave.

Paul: And I’m Paul.

Yeardley: And this is Small Town Dicks.

Dan: Dave and I are identical twins-

Dave: -And retired detectives from Small Town, USA.

Paul: And I’m a veteran cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden State Killer using a revolutionary DNA tool.

Dan: Between the three of us, we’ve investigated thousands of crimes, from petty theft to sexual assault, child abuse to murder.

Dave: Each case we cover is told by the detective who investigated it, offering a rare, personal account of how they solved the crime.

Paul: Names, places, and certain details have been changed to protect the privacy of victims and their families.

Dan: And although we’re aware that some of our listeners may be familiar with these cases, we ask you to please join us in continuing to protect the true identities of those involved-

Dave: -out of respect for what they’ve been through.

[unison]: Thank you.

[Small Town Dicks theme]

Yeardley: Today on Small Town Dicks, we have most of the usual suspects. We have Detective Dan.

Dan: Hey there.

Yeardley: Hey there. So nice and chipper.

Dan: It’s good to be here.

Yeardley: It’s good to have you. And we have Detective Dave.

Dave: Hey, hey.

Yeardley: Oh, he stole Paul Holes’ hey, hey. [laughs] Cheeky. That’s because the one and only Paul Holes is MIA today. As I like to say, he’s the busiest retired investigator on the planet. And today, Paul is off doing what he does best, investigating a cold case that I hope we’ll be able to cover in a future episode. But in the meantime, I promise you’re in excellent hands, my friends, because you have the OG Crew in Detectives Dan and Dave.

Dan: He just sent me a picture and he’s sitting on a beach.

[laughter]

Yeardley: Oh, no.

Dave: Suckers. Yep. [Yeardley laughs]

Yeardley: And Small Town Fam, we are so excited to welcome a new guest to the podcast, retired Lieutenant Matt.

Matt: Good morning or afternoon, wherever you’re at.

Yeardley: Yes, wherever you are. Hey, Matt, we’re so happy to have you sit down with us. Thank you so much. We love all our guests, actually, because everybody who comes on the podcast is extraordinarily generous and forthcoming with their experiences in this most unusual job. But before we get started, we also like to get a little thumbnail biography of your career in law enforcement. So, I always sound like I’m on the dating game here. Tell us about you, Matt. [laughs]

Matt: Sure. Well, besides the long walks on the beach,-

[laughter]

-I did start my career relatively young. I started in a place called Hidalgo County Sheriff’s Department, and I started in 1994, worked there until 2000, where I transferred to the Deming Police Department, where I stayed for 20 years. At that department, I worked in patrol, went up through the ranks to detectives and within the detective division, I did multiple assignments because, as you know, small towns that have detective divisions, like you said, they wear a lot of hats. We only had four detectives assigned to our agency. Our agency had, at its best, 36 officers sworn for a small town that had just over 14,000 people.

Yeardley: And can I ask you what state the town was in?

Matt: Sure. It was in New Mexico. Our town was a southwest border town. We were 30 miles from the Mexican border, and we’re right off the interstate.

Yeardley: So, you have four detectives in your agency in this itty-bitty town. But before we sat down, you mentioned that you ended up going from detectives back to patrol because you wanted to end in uniform again.

Matt: Yeah, it was just a personal thing. I came in a uniform. I wanted to leave or exit in a uniform.

Yeardley: I love that.

Dave: I totally get it.

Matt: It was just something that I just felt I wanted to do. Discussed it with my wife, and they’re like, “Yeah, go for it if it’s possible.” And fortunately, it was. There was a patrol lieutenant who was actually going to be retiring. And when he did, I went in, spoke to the chief and said, “Hey, this is what I want to do.” And, you know, thankful I was able to do it. So, I spent my last two years out in uniform.

Yeardley: Is that unusual to make a transition like that from, say, detectives going back on the street?

Matt: Yes, because a lot of people would think that they’re going backwards, but for me, it was a plateau. And I always enjoyed the patrol life. I enjoyed that, the aspect. And because we were such a small town, I was a working lieutenant, so I still every day got calls. I still had to do the reports on top of making sure the reports were all signed off and everybody was doing what they’re supposed to be doing, helping with scheduling issues, the whole nine yards. But it was a lot of fun, and I don’t regret anything or any path that I took.

Yeardley: I love it. Well, on that note, Matt, please tell us how this case came to you.

Matt: Well, the day started out like a normal day. Like I said, I was in the detective division, and you start hearing some of the chatter on the radio. And what happened was earlier in the day, one of the teachers for our high school didn’t report to work. And this was very unusual. Her name was Suzanne. When Suzanne never came into work, the school sent some fellow coworkers to Suzanne’s house. They knocked on the door, and the husband, George, answered the door, and they said, “Hey, wondering where Suzanne’s at? She didn’t come to work this morning. We’re just checking in just to make sure she’s okay.” And George says Suzanne just left and that was about it.

So, the teachers left, they reported back to their principal and so on, and they just didn’t get a real good feel about anything. So that afternoon, of course, they finally got law enforcement involved.

Dave: I think it’s important to point out that Suzanne’s coworkers, that the hair on their neck is standing up, something feels off and they listen to it. And I think it’s important for our listeners too. You don’t have to try to justify and find reasons not to call us. Just give us a call. This is what we do.

Matt: Yes, it’s always better safe than sorry.

Dave: These types of calls come into police departments every day, nationwide overdue subject or somebody doesn’t show up to work or is late to something. So, they don’t always turn into a big deal. But for listeners, these are calls that we deal with all the time and we’re happy to deal with these types of welfare checks.

Yeardley: How long does somebody have to be sort of MIA before law enforcement will do a welfare check?

Dave: It’s a case-by-case basis. You look into the person’s background. Are they reliable? Are they known to be fashionably late? Are they known to be 10 minutes early all the time? Is there something going on here that seems like we should investigate further or sometimes there’s a very easy explanation.

Matt: Correct. And with this particular case, Suzanne, she had some issues, health wise. She had MS. And so, they knew sometimes she would have a bad day. So, if they could go out and help her out, they would. Not only that, but she was always faithful about getting to work. If she wasn’t going to be there right away, she would make contact with somebody say, “Hey, I’m running late or something to that effect.” None of that happened. So, their red flags were already starting to pop up by the time they came to us.

Yeardley: Suzanne’s husband, George, he seemed quite casual about Suzanne not showing up to work. Like there didn’t seem to be a lot of concern there.

Matt: No, like I said, he just gave him a very basic explanation. We had a disagreement and she left. I don’t know where she’s at. Well, this is small town USA. Everybody knows where everybody’s at.

Dave: Yeah.

Matt: So, the uniform officer went back to speak to George, tried to get better of a statement from him. And again, George was very vague with us. Unknown where she went, who she was with. She didn’t take a purse, no cell phone, no, nothing. Didn’t even take the vehicle. So, you’re telling me she just left in the middle of the night.

Dave: On foot, destination unknown.

Matt: Unknown. Correct. So, of course the red flags are starting to pop up on us.

[Break 1]

So, we start knocking on doors. We start putting out a be on the lookout or ATL with all other officers as well as surrounding departments. We’re looking for this person. This is the last known location and hopefully we can locate Suzanne.

Yeardley: And about how old are Suzanne and George?

Matt: Suzanne was about 28 years old and George 29.

Yeardley: Oh, young. Okay.

Matt: They were high school sweethearts, so they had known each other all their lives, and they had one child.

Yeardley: How old is George and Suzanne’s child?

Matt: Three or four by this time. And their child’s name was Gavin. Now, George didn’t work. He stayed at home to help raise Gavin while Suzanne went out every day and worked at the school. And so, night falls, we’re not getting any information, but we have everybody looking. We put Suzanne’s name into NCIC.

Yeardley: And what is that acronym?

Matt: NCIC stands for the National Crime Information Center.

Yeardley: Oh, and it goes nationwide, I’m guessing. Obviously national.

Dave: Yes.

Matt: Yes.

Dan: Yeah, we even keep track of stolen property through NCIC.

Yeardley: Oh.

Dan: Yeah.

Yeardley: Okay.

Matt: If somebody comes across her, they run Suzanne, we can at least notify, “Okay, she’s in this town or she’s with this person.” That was the hope. When none of that started to come about, everybody just started talking, again small town, if somebody goes out missing, people are going to start talking. People are going to start helping the police out when and how they can. And one of the officers, Officer Glenn, who knows the family, knows the area really well. He says, “You know what the family, they have some property north of the city, just outside the city limits.” So, Officer Glenn took it upon himself to go out there. Mind you, once you got out of the city limits, it’s desert or the southwest desert. There is no trees, it’s just mesquites and tumbleweeds.

[laughter]

Dave: Mesquite farms as far as the eye can see.

Matt: Yes. And tumbleweeds blowing the wind. Just like the movies you’re thinking of.

Dave: I can picture every western that I’ve ever seen, a lone cowboy.

Yeardley: That’s right, on the dusty terrain.

Matt: Yes. So, Glenn, he does go to this property. This is about midnight, and it’s a dirt road off of a main road. Glenn noticed some fresh vehicle track and some shoe impressions. Now, mind you, this road that they had to travel on, police always travel it because it leads out to our detention center. So, Glenn knew the area. And the area is visible off the road. When you look at the property, there’s no buildings on it. It’s just raw property. The property had a large hole. It seemed like it could have been some type of well, if you will. The hole was built out of bricks. It was probably about 6 to 8ft in diameter. There’s nothing covering it. So, if you just walked into it, not knowing you’re going to fall in. And so, Glenn walked out there.

When Glenn noticed the hole, he shined his flashlight into the hole. And the hole’s covered up with tumbleweeds. So, the wind would throw in tumbleweeds and debris and so on into this hole. Well, he noticed that there was something on top of the tumbleweeds, pushing it down. And so, Officer Glenn, when he looked into the hole, he said, “I see a dark object, what I believe to be a bag sitting on top of the tumbleweeds.” So, this bag was just placed into the hole.

Dave: And with enough heft to cause tumbleweed to give an impression.

Matt: Yes. When Glenn noticed that bag, he immediately backed out, stayed there, called supervisor. Supervisor starts calling the detectives, which happened to be me. I come out and they explain what they have. And I was like, “Well, you know, it’s dark, so let’s do this safely. So, we’ll block off the area, we’ll keep eyes on it, and in the morning, I’ll get a search warrant and we’ll see what that is.”

Dan: Just to be clear, if Glenn looks down that hole and he sees anything that resembles a human being, they’re going down, right. They’re not waiting for a search warrant. But in this case, you’ve got a bag. You don’t have anybody moaning inside the bag. You just sit there and you be patient and do it the right way.

Matt: Yes, I think we did everything according, we secured the scene, we kept eyes on it all night. I stayed out there, and I worked on a search warrant throughout the night. Working with my supervisor as well as the district attorney’s office in my particular jurisdiction to get a search warrant, I would have to have the approval of the district attorneys, meaning that I have explained what I have up to this point. They feel there’s probable cause. As long as, I have probable cause, they’ll grant me that search warrant. And one of the things that was hard because literally, the county and the city limit line went right through this property.

[laughter]

So, we’re like, okay, so how do we handle this? So, we had to bring in the county department just to help make sure everything’s legal, dot our I’s, cross our T’s. They signed off on the search warrant, but they’re like, “You doing all the paperwork?” I go, “Yes, of course I’m doing all the paperwork.”

[laughter]

Dave: Nobody’s wanting to catch another case out here.

Matt: Exactly. So, we waited for morning. I got the approval for the search warrant. I wrote it up, got the judges and the district attorneys to sign off on it. So, we got to the area. Of course, we did all the things, taking the pictures, doing molds of the tracks. But when we got to that hole, we had to do it safely. So, we got some rigging from our fire department. They came out to assist us and they put a tripod harness over the hole itself. And we rigged up officer Glenn to this harness because he had experience dealing with rappelling and also first responder stuff [laughs] and Glenn was super skinny.

[laughter]

So, weren’t going to have to really lift him up that much.

Dave: Safety being number one priority.

Yeardley: Sure.

Matt: Yes, of course, of course.

[laughter]

Yeardley: So, we’ve suited Glenn up in a harness because he’s skinny and he knows how to rappel.

[laughter]

Matt: Yes, perfect qualifications. So, we get him down, and he’s going down and he’s doing the things that I’ve asked for him. I’m like, “Hey, take pictures of this. Make sure you’re getting as much documentation as you possibly can.” What do you see? “I’m writing down as much as I can and I’m sure he’s getting fed up with me.”

[laughter]

But Glenn makes it down to this object. He does confirm that is a large sports bag. And Glenn said, “I believe I see human hair in the zipper. Now hairs on my back of my neck are standing. Okay, it’s not going to be the outcome that we wanted. So, Glenn ties on to the bag. We hoist it up. The bag was definitely filled with something heavy. And you could see in the zipper what appeared to be human hair.

And by this time, we contacted the office of the medical examiner and had their investigator dispatched to our area who also lived in our city. He came out, he knew the family as well, and he says, “Well, we got to see if there’s a body in there.” And when we did unzip this large duffel bag, we did see the body of Suzanne. Her face was the first thing we see and we identified her as Suzanne. So, now we move from a missing person now into homicide space.

Dave: Immediately, my detective brain goes kicking in, and I’m like, “Who’s sitting on George’s house right now?”

Matt: We did have somebody watching his movements. We assigned some officers to follow him around, and they did.

Dave: Was George helpful in searching for Suzanne?

Matt: No. Not one time did he say, “Hey, have you looked over here? Have you looked there?”

Dave: Right? It’s always that. Well, I’m not looking because I already know where she is.

[laughter]

Matt: Exactly, exactly. As soon as I saw Suzanne, I told him, “Get him in my office.”

Yeardley: So, get George into your office.

Matt: Correct? Yes. Let’s place him under investigative detention because I felt that we had enough probable cause to at least bring him in for some serious talking.

[Break 2]

So, George was brought in and I got George into the interview room, said, “Hey, I think you know why you’re here.” I told George we found Suzanne’s body, but I didn’t want to say how we found her, because I was wondering if he would maybe help himself out, but he didn’t. George denied any involvement in Suzanne’s disappearance, denied any involvement in her death. But he would tell me they were having marital problems and that she was having an affair with an unknown guy, they were meeting at a particular hotel room. He was giving all this information and to me, it’s just like he’s just trying to justify his own actions.

Yeardley: And was Suzanne, in fact, having an affair or was that just a lie?

Matt: It was just a lie. So, I started going to all of our local hotels. Even though we’re a small town, we had a lot of hotels. And I looked through every registration book, looking for vehicles, name anything that might help lead us to either prove or disprove George’s allegation and never did I come across anything that supported his allegation.

Yeardley: That Suzanne was having an affair.

Matt: Correct. So that was just for him, just to send me down the wrong path.

Yeardley: So, George is selling you a bill of goods, like George is lying up a storm.

Matt: Right. Of course, the district attorney’s office was involved the entire time. So, they knew exactly what was going on and everything. And they thought that they had enough to go ahead and arrest George. So, we charged an open count of murder. Now, an open count of murder, it allows the prosecution more investigation, and when we get to the trial aspect to either try to get the first degree, second degree, or manslaughter. So, it’s kind of like three charges in one.

Yeardley: I see. So, open count allows you decide which degree of murder you’re ultimately going to charge George with.

Matt: Yes, at a later time or just before trial. Kind of lets you give, okay, this is what we have the evidence to support.

Yeardley: Interesting.

Matt: So, once George was thrown into jail, that’s when the investigation really amps up. So, we had dealings with Suzanne and George before this case. George was reporting burglaries and breaking enterings of the home. And the things that were missing was medication belonging to Suzanne. And so, George was always the one making the reports. Okay, he was like, somebody broke into the house. They stole only Suzanne’s medication that she needs to get through her affliction. And these are morphine suckers, morphine pills. All the narcotics a person would need to get through a bad day.

Yeardley: Because Suzanne had MS, right?

Matt: Right. So, she had a lot of narcotics. And oddly enough that was the only thing missing.

Yeardley: Every time.

Matt: Right.

Dave: The number of burglaries that I’ve investigated or I’ve heard of being investigated, where there was a home invasion, there was no violence, but one bottle or two bottles of pills were taken, and nothing else was disturbed.

Matt: Right. Oh, they know exactly where they kept her medicine, but they bypassed the money and the laptop that’s sitting right there on the counter.

Dave: Right.

Matt: I don’t think. We pulled all these reports and they were all the burglaries with the medicine missing. So, now we’re thinking that George is addicted to her medicine. And so, he’s using her meds up and that causes the issue and the conflict within the home.

Yeardley: So, not only are these meds missing and George is addicted, Suzanne is having to do without them, and she really is the one who needs them.

Matt: Yes, she’s the one that’s suffering through it all.

Yeardley: God.

Matt: And so Suzanne’s body was processed. The autopsy did reveal that Suzanne was strangled. And of course, during the investigation, we did search warrants on the home, and we collected a lot of stuff within the home. One of the times we were at the house, I found a cord to the laptop. These cords, they have these Velcro fasteners. When you bundle up the cord and you can wrap the Velcro around it.

Dave: Got one right there, yeah.

Matt: Exactly. That thing, laptop charger.

Yeardley: Right.

Matt: So, inside there, that was some hair that was attached to it. And I was like, “Hey, that’s going to be important at some point.” So, things were taken. And later on, we learned that, yeah, George used the cord from the laptop charger as the weapon to strangle Suzanne.

Dan: I’m thinking about this case and the evidence that you have so far, and my mind keeps going back to the bag, the duffel bag. Tracking down the source of that duffel bag could be a huge home run.

Matt: We know that George and Suzanne were also involved in sports. Suzanne loved softball in particular. And she had a large duffel bag that kept all the bats and the balls and all that equipment inside and guess what was missing from the home?

Yeardley: The duffel bag.

Matt: Exactly. Also, I found rolls of duct tape that was used almost to the last strand of duct tape. When I attended the autopsy for Suzanne, I noticed on her wrists and her ankles a sticky residue. And I found that significant so did the doctors. And it was my belief that George restrained Suzanne with the duct tape prior to her death, because when she was taken out of the duffel bag, her wrists were free. There was nothing holding them together. But something had to leave that sticky residue on her wrists and her ankles.

Dave: Yeah.

Yeardley: It seems odd to me that if George did in fact wrap Suzanne’s ankles and wrists in duct tape, that he would remove it before dropping her in the well. No?

Dave: Possibly, George has seen other shows where people are discovered with their DNA or fingerprints on the sticky side of duct tape or they’re thinking, I’m going to leave the least amount of evidence I can. And they think, well, I’ll take the duct tape, or you can’t get into their heads, especially with inexperienced criminals, because it’s frantic and hectic and chaotic. You get people that are thinking in two planes. They’re in panic mode and they’re in cover up mode. And those can blend.

Matt: Not to mention too, we have Gavin still.

Yeardley: And Gavin is George and Suzanne’s young son. Yes?

Matt: Correct. We had Gavin interviewed by a forensic interviewer. And of course, he didn’t know much, but during that forensic interview, we learned that George and Suzanne, they were arguing. Gavin said mommy, daddy would argue stuff to that effect, and that daddy drove us out to where the coyotes were. Okay. Didn’t mention mom, dad put us all in a car out to where the coyotes are and he threw something away. So, it’s believed that after the murder, George puts her into the bag, loads Suzanne up into the vehicle, gathers Gavin, puts him in the car, drives out to dispose of Suzanne.

Yeardley: Wow.

Dave: I’ve been present for hundreds of forensic interviews, and under five is really tough to get any detail with context. It’s really difficult. But you get these little one line, aha moments, little nuggets in these interviews. And so, I’m really impressed that we’re able to get that kind of detail from Gavin.

Matt: Right. And the information that we got through that forensic interview, we didn’t put that out there a lot. That was just like a little nugget for us saying, “Okay, yeah, we’re on the right track.” And I think we were also moving along in the investigation that we had a lot more evidence that we were able to come up with to where we didn’t have to worry about what Gavin knew.

Yeardley: Right.

[Break 3]

Matt: So, our district attorney’s office, prior to trial, gave George a plea bargain. So, they’ll say, “We won’t go for first degree murder or anything like that, but you’ll plead guilty to second degree murder. You’ll give up full parental rights of Gavin so he can be raised by the grandparents, Suzanne’s family. And you have to be re-interviewed and be truthful with the detective,” which was me.

Dave: So, tell us what happened, according to George.

Matt: Well, George still insisted that Suzanne was having an affair. He still said that even when I told him and showed him this was impossible, it just didn’t happen. George still said that she was having an affair, and that just threw him into a rage. They were arguing, she threatened to leave, and one thing led to another, and he grabbed the cord, which is the closest thing to him, and George strangled her. And then once he strangled her, he went into, oh, shit moment, like, what do I do next? So, my thoughts, I don’t believe most of what George confessed to me. I just don’t believe a lot that came out of his mouth. My thought is they were having a heated disagreement, probably about the missing drugs.

All the other times that they fought, it was about the drugs, him needing to get help so she can have her own medicine, and he not steal her stuff. So, again, this is just my thought. They had a disagreement about it. I believe it got physical. And I told him this whenever I was interviewing him. I said, “I believe that you guys got into a physical altercation. I think that you tied her down. Because during the autopsy, there was nothing under her fingernails. There was nothing to indicate that she was struggling to get something off of her neck. There was no scratches on her neck. There was nothing like that. She just had a lone ligature across her neck. That was it. No other scratches or injuries.”

Okay, but yet she had injuries to her body, bruising where I think he was hitting her to subdue her. Once he got her taped down, then that’s when he saw that damn cord and he grabbed that cord and he got behind her and he killed her. That’s my belief.

Dave: I would agree. I think George knew he was going to kill Suzanne when the tape came out. People who are being strangled and have the use of their hands will gouge and claw at their throats trying to get relief from the ligature. Who doesn’t fight back when they can’t breathe. Did George ever confirm that Gavin went out to the property north of town with dad?

Matt: No, he never admitted to anything like that.

Dave: Okay.

Matt: Even though it was brought up, where was Gavin during all this? George just brushed it aside. He goes, “I only have to tell you that I admitted killing her and that’s what I’m doing.”

Dan: This plea agreement that George has to admit to what he’s done, well, it’s crafted so George and his defense team, they have access to all the evidence that Matt and his team have compiled. So, George can really craft his statement and really make it self-serving. So, when he goes to prison, the things that are on the record, his wife was cheating on him. It’s not like he killed just an innocent woman, his wife was cheating on him. So, that’s going to give him a little better street cred in the prison even though he killed a woman, he killed a woman who was wronging him. You have to crawl inside George’s mind, he’s going to minimize and mitigate all of this to his benefit.

Yeardley: Right.

Dan: Lieutenant Matt, were you able to confirm the tire tracks and the shoe impressions belonged to George?

Matt: Yes, through our state lab, they were confirmed that the shoe impressions, as well as the tire impressions, matched the sole vehicle that belonged to George and the family.

Yeardley: It seems like, Lieutenant Matt, you had a really, very strong case against George. Why the plea deal?

Matt: I would love to know the answer to that.

Yeardley: [laughs] Fair.

Matt: Why the plea agreement if you ask me, it’s just because they don’t want to take that chance of losing it in court, maybe.

Dave: Yeah.

Matt: But we got a conviction, right? We got George off the street. Gavin got to be raised by a loving family, and he’s done well in his life.

Yeardley: Good.

Dave: What kind of hammer did they hit George with after a guilty plea?

Matt: George got 18 years.

Dave: Okay.

Yeardley: Did he do every day of 18 years?

Matt: Yes.

Yeardley: Is he out now? Is George out in the world?

Matt: Yes. It’s my understanding he’s been released. George sent me a letter from prison once, I was very shocked to get it. And in this letter, he just basically blamed me for making him look like a monster in the community. And I had to chuckle at that and I couldn’t let that go unanswered, so I wrote back. [Dave laughs]

Yeardley: You wrote George back?

Matt: I wrote George back.

Dave: I love that.

Yeardley: Can you tell us what you said? [laughs]

Matt: Sure. I did mention you say that I made you out to be this monster. And I remember clearly, the last words were, “It was, you don’t need no help from me. You did that all yourself,” [Yeardley laughs] and I made my chief read it at that time, just so he knew that way he wouldn’t get angry call from an attorney or something like that.

Dan: Or a news station.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. But that was the last I ever heard of George.

Dave: How deep into a sentence was that when George writes this letter to you?

Matt: It was probably several years, but still had some time to go, and he was still hating life, hating me, which okay.

Dave: And not being accountable for anything.

Matt: Exactly. George never took accountability for his crimes for who he’s hurt or hurt in the future.

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: So, Matt, did you retire in the same community that you were working in, where George was?

Matt: I did.

Dan: You ever see George?

Matt: No. I moved out of the state. I didn’t want to retire and live in the same area. I wanted to live life. I wanted to have another second life.

Yeardley: Yeah. And along those lines, Matt, what about this particular case, since you had such a long career in law enforcement, what about this one stands out for you. Why did you choose this one today?

Matt: I’ve always thought of this case as one that I did good, I think. I feel that we took a bad person off of the streets, and I got to see the people that was left behind to see how they did later in life. And I’m talking about Gavin. I saw Gavin grow up. I coached him in little league football.

Yeardley: Oh, great.

Matt: I watched him do all the little league sports. I watched him grow up into an outstanding young man. And when we moved away, we learned that not only did he graduate high school, but he was also top of his class. To me, it was a good feeling. I did something right.

Dave: Was Gavin raised by Suzanne’s parents?

Matt: Yes. And they are great people.

Yeardley: It’s a lovely full circle moment, really, for a terrible event. A little bit of good came out of it. Gavin actually is thriving.

Matt: Yeah. Cause we don’t always get to see what happens afterwards. And a lot of the times, it’s not always good.

[unison]: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: But this one, it was, he was raised to be a good person in this world. Something that I know his mom would have been proud of.

Yeardley: I love that. Such great work. And hats off to Glenn, who had a hunch, went out there and you know what? I see some shit down there. I love it.

Dave: Skinny guys who can repel.

[laughter]

Always good on a crime scene with heights.

Matt: Yes, exactly.

[music]

Yeardley: Thank you so much for bringing that to us today.

Matt: Of course.

Dan: Good work.

Dave: Nicely done.

Matt: Thank you.

Yeardley: Now for a sneak peek at today’s new bonus episode.

Dan: You also have Kidnap one, Kidnap two.

Yeardley: What’s Kidnap two?

Dan: So, the difference between kidnap one and kidnap two. Kidnap one is like your worst nightmare. Just what you think it is.

Yeardley: Right.

Dan: Right. Snatch a little girl off the street and drive away with her that’s kidnap one, which we’ve had a case like that monster and our first or second season.

Yeardley: Yep. Also, Lindsey’s case, I think that we called at last.

Dan: That’s kidnap one. Kidnap two is basically you grab somebody and you take them from one place to another. So, if I drug you by the hair or I just said, “Hey, you’re going to the other side of the house and basically deprive you of your liberty.” That’s kidnap two in our state or hiding somebody in a place they’re not likely to be found.

[music]

Yeardley: To listen today’s bonus episode and access hundreds more, go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button.

Small Town Dicks was created by Detectives Dan and Dave. The podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yeardley Smith. Our senior editor is Soren Begin and our editor is Christina Bracamontes. Our associate producers are the Real Nick Smitty and Erin Gaynor. Logan Heftel is our production manager. Our books are cooked and cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell. And our social media maven is Monika Scott. It would make our day if you became a member of our Small Town Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at @smalltowndicks, we love hearing from you.

[music]

Oh, our groovy theme song was composed by John Forrest. Also, if you’d like to support the making of this podcast, go to smalltowndicks.com/superfam and hit that little join button. There, for a small subscription fee, you’ll find exclusive content you can’t get anywhere else.

The transcripts of this podcast are thanks to SpeechDocs and they can be found on our website, smalltowndicks.com. Thank you SpeechDocs for this wonderful service. Small Town Dicks is an Audio 99 Production. Small Town Fam, thanks for listening. Nobody is better than you.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]